Independence Gardens

Today I'm talking with Chonnie at Independence Gardens. You can follow them on Facebook as well.

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This is Mary Lewis at A Tiny Homestead, the podcast comprised entirely of conversations with homesteaders, cottage food producers, and crafters. If you're enjoying this podcast, please like, subscribe, share it with a friend, or leave a comment. Thank you. Today, I'm talking with Chonnie at Independence Gardens. Good morning, Chonnie. Good morning. How are you? I'm great. How are you? Good. Fantastic, actually. Good.

00:26
I'm actually in Lewisville, Texas. So it's a town a little bit north of Dallas. It's kind of in a North Dallas area. Okay. I thought it was Texas, but I just wanted to make sure. All right. Well, tell me about yourself and Independence Gardens and what you guys do. So Independence Gardens is a local nonprofit that has roots in Lewisville, Texas. We've been around since 2013. And our overall mission is to provide children access to fresh food.

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through nutrition-based programs. And it includes sustainability programs. I was actually just recently had an opportunity to be at EarthX at 2024, that was held in Dallas. And I spoke about some of the programs that we had, specifically our Beanstalk project, which is our hydroponic system, which is a fairly new program for us. And so really it's just an opportunity for

01:22
school communities to not only grow their own food, but to feed everyone in that school, in the heart of that school. And the program started in 2013. And I tell this story because nobody believes me. It started with a simple school lunch. And my daughter was in kindergarten at that time. And I just happened to be having lunch with her, of course, like everybody wants.

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first year of their child's public school years. And I remembered, right, our school lunch. I don't know if you remember your school lunch. Mine was like the best hamburger ever, right? It was the best hamburger I ever had. And, you know, everybody said it was kind of a hamburger, but not really a hamburger because it tasted like meat, but there were some additional fillers in it that made it. It was the best thing I remember when I was growing up.

02:17
So when I had lunch with her and went through the line, she had, I remember this because she had chicken nuggets. She got her chocolate milk and it was green beans that did not look like green beans. And it was the weirdest color I'd ever seen. And I didn't really think much about it, but I should have had a warning when I went in to check in and the administrator asked me.

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if I brought her something to eat. And I'm like, absolutely not. I'm having lunch with her. And she said, well, maybe next time you can bring her something from either McDonald's or Chick-fil-A. And I'm like, that's odd. So as we went through the line and she kind of, you know, I saw these green beans. It was supposed to be green, but I don't know. I've never seen this color green beans before. She kind of picked her food a little bit, drank all of her chocolate milk of course.

03:14
and basically threw about 80% of it away. I noticed that in every child around me as they threw away their food, and there was 80% of everything they had in their lunch tray they threw away. I understood why she was so hungry when she came home because she didn't eat. I left and I was checking out this administrator said,

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see maybe next time you need to bring her something else. And so I left that lunch. That's when I think the mission of the organization seeded itself because I could not consciously send my child to a place that is supposed to be the organization, the people that would nourish her mind and body when we can't even.

04:09
solve the simplest things and that is what would they put in their body, right? To actually nourish their mind and get them on the path of success. And also, I couldn't believe that adults would actively say, I wouldn't eat that lunch. And then my thought is, then why are you feeding it to my child? So that's really, and I talk about her because she is going to be a senior this year, so she's graduating this year, and Independence Gardens started with her. And so that really just

04:37
I surrounded myself with like-minded individuals and having a background in marketing and in health because I always say I started my journey in this sphere of food and health when I worked for the American Heart Association. So I was a marketing manager for them and I led part of the Heart Checkmark program. I don't know if you've ever seen it. It's on the...

05:05
It's on the cheer-grows boxes and it's like a heart with a check mark on it. And so I was really plugged in with the importance of how food impacted your body. And also at that time as well, the school that she was in was 55% Title I school. So everyone and those children received free or reduced lunch.

05:33
in food deserts. So believe it or not, there is still a food desert in the US and roughly, I think back then there was 44 communities in North Texas alone that really qualified for that. So that's really the background of who I am. I'm founder of Independence Gardens. I serve as founder and executive director. We are a fully volunteer organization. I have

06:01
My amazing board members, some of them have been with me since 2013. So pretty, pretty long time. Because they believe as we do, right? If we can just give children access to fresh food, then they're able to make healthier food choices as they grow. And I am also on the flip side of that, I lead a pediatric organization locally.

06:31
their ramifications when we do not feed our children the right kind of food. That's a lot, right? That's a lot. That's awesome though, because that was everything that I needed to know to keep asking questions. And to share two stories about school lunches. I'm going to share mine. I was in school, oh my goodness, I graduated over 30 years ago.

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I did not eat the school lunches because number one, I was a terribly picky child and did not like any foods. I was really skinny. And number two, I knew that if I bought a very fine juice and a single serving size bag of Doritos, I would still have $3 left at the end of each day. And I wanted pocket money more than I wanted lunch. So that worked out slick.

07:26
And then the other story is my kids, two of my sons came home from school one day. I think the older one was still in middle school and the younger one was in elementary school. And they both came up to me and said, can we start taking lunches from the leftovers from dinner? And I said, of course you can. Why? And my older one said, because school lunches aren't food.

07:53
And I thought, yeah, you can certainly start taking cold lunches to school. I didn't think they'd want to because I thought that they would think it wasn't cool to do that. But we got them some very neutral lunch box, soft sided lunch boxes, and they started taking leftovers from dinner the night before. And they were very happy with that because school lunches are not typically food. Isn't that crazy? That just blows my mind.

08:22
I continuously hear stories like that. And it's actually, it's fairly recent too, I mean, because we have been around since 2013 and I've been advocating for ways for us to really address not only the school lunch issue and ensuring every child has access to fresh food, but the obesity epidemic as well.

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It's counterintuitive, right? If they don't have access to fresh food, then how are they obese? Well, it's actually interlinked because they're eating processed foods. Because first of all, it's a lot less expensive to purchase for a lot of these families. It's fresh food just basically rots a lot. It doesn't last as long as all the foods that they're buying.

09:19
And we always get asked why schools, why even do it in that realm. And I like to kind of say schools are the heart of communities. Elementary schools are truly the heart of communities. They're full from different neighborhoods. They bring a lot of families together, a lot of different cultures. And I think in a lot of these kids, especially if they fall within the parameters of...

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free and reduced lunch, if they get SNAP benefits, then that's the only food that they get. Like 90% of what they eat, they get from school lunches. And so, whenever they're throwing 80% of that away, then they're literally not feeding their body anything. And so, as a parent, it really surprises me whenever we get those lovely letters saying,

10:15
We're doing testing this week, right? You know, standardized testing this week. Please make sure that your child is getting sleep, that you're supportive of your child before it's successful. And then my pushback is, and why don't we look at whether we're feeding them in the morning? I mean, you cannot expect them to succeed when we're not even feeding them the right type of food and the right combination of food.

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to fuel their mind and their body. So that's been, and I mean, it's been an ongoing journey. So I didn't think I would still be here. If you would have asked me in 2013 what I would be doing in 2024, I'd probably say, I don't think I would be doing this. So this is a passion project for me, which is kind of why it's...

11:12
My daughter is 17 and my other tier are not even elementary schools anymore, but I am actively still, I like to say, in the trenches and getting my hands dirty. As we're putting together outdoor learning spaces, edible spaces through our Apple project or going and talking and actively talking about the newest initiative, which is the Beanstalk Project, which is our hydroponic systems that we're putting in schools, because we have to be actively.

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involved in not only teaching our children the link between food security and water sustainability, because it's so interlinked right now. And it's that our population is just going to get bigger and our water resources shrinking. So we really have to find ways to be able to feed not only the population, our communities.

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but also in a responsible and sustainable way. And the food thing for me, by the way, it's not just about the growing because we have our Come and Eat It program, which is our chef driven program that we created in 2014 as a trademark program for us. And I have a lot of chef friends. And so I've been in the industry. So I understand their passion for ensuring and especially creating fresh food. And so since

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I think this past May, it's kind of our first post-COVID event that we've done. We had over 825 kids participate. And so we hold it one day out of the year. And this year we just pushed it back to National Nutrition Month, which is March. And so our goal is to really take that program nationally and that it's a program that every elementary school can have access to in the future. So that, you know, that we have, we have a ton happening and it's all...

13:06
I really, I love to talk about my board because they're kind of the heart of who we are and without their passion and because there's a lot of good people and humans out there that are really passionate about ensuring children are equipped with all the resources they need to succeed. And part of that is ensuring healthy nutrition that goes into their body as well. Absolutely. I agree a million percent with you.

13:36
Not just 100, a million. That's how big. How big I agree with you. Yes. So are you only in Texas or is this outside, is it the whole United States? So we're based in Texas, but our program is national. So we were built, we were founded on the premise that we would be a national program. We are in conversations with some school districts in Arizona.

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And that's kind of where our foray is. And we actually, we work directly with the school district, because if we can get the buying from the school districts and then it's easier to get it into every school, right? So it doesn't really cost any of the schools to get our programs in place. They just have to want it. And so we work with them. And it's an easy sell, right? But then you would think it's an easy sell.

14:34
But it's the hardest thing to kind of get into schools. And I understand that and I get that because the school gardening, I like to say, is not a new thing. It's been around for forever. The reason that we're a little bit different is we build it on relationships. We're very relationship and collaborative driven, meaning that when we go into a school, we actively build a community.

15:00
And we stay for three years. We have a commitment to stay with the school for three years. And that includes funding if it's available for them for the entirety of the three years. And, um, and then we, we continue to keep them in our network until they tell us to leave, right? Um, so we're able to bring this program because our, I always like to say is, um,

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You have to think big, especially when you're a nonprofit. Whenever I think whenever you minimize the way you're thinking, you just don't grow as an organization. And they are, I just, I just did this study the other day, cause I wanted to kind of see there's over, I want to say 60,000 plus elementary schools in the country. And we need to be in every one of them. Um, the reason I say that is because if we're in every one of them, then

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communities automatically have access to fresh food. And that's really what we are. I'm not going out and saying, you know, a company needs to change the way they do business because we have active partners in Aramark. So Aramark is a food service provider in K-12 here in some school districts in Texas. And there are active partners that we partner with them on ensuring food is readily available. And we're collaborating with Come and Eat It.

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And we're actually going to be doing a chef battle. This is the first time we're announcing it in this kind of format. The chef battle is called Food Fight 2024. And a food fight is going to be held at a local elementary school. And we're actually going to be sending out a national invitation next week to chefs to come in for this event. And they will be creating a dish.

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that is within the parameters of the National School Lunch Program, even down to the dollar amount that every child gets. There's going to be a secret ingredient because I have a lot of chefs that are competitive. They're going to have about roughly 45 minutes to an hour to create the dish in the school cafeteria kitchen. They get to present their food to

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third, fourth and fifth graders, because they're at the end of the day, they're the ones that's going to eat it. The reason we're putting this event is twofold, right? Like I say, you're asking if it's national. The fresh food access is a national problem. We have to really address it. The reason we're doing it is because it's twofold. We want to see if the current dollar amount that is being given to children when it comes in that the food program for in-school lunches is sufficient. Is it sufficient?

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Or, I think they just came down with new guidelines when it comes to, I want to say sugar and salt. And so, are those guidelines acceptable? And can we actively work with local farmers, with local organizations that are doing amazing work when it comes to sustainability, food access, whatever that looks like? And can...

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Can organizations, companies like Aramark or school districts actively partner and bring in more fresh food for these kids? How does that look like? And then if it's not, and if it's a total waste and these kids say, we hate this food, then we know, okay, then let's start the conversation is how do we increase the per child amount when it comes to fresh food?

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To me, it's kind of the cost of not doing that is astronomical because obesity costs, from a healthcare perspective, by the way, because I've seen the numbers, it costs the healthcare industry over a billion dollars in obesity alone. And that is coming from those preventable diseases like diabetes.

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heart disease and things of that nature that could be prevented when they're younger. But we don't look at it that way. We are actively doing things to what I like to say to put a band-aid on the problem versus just ripping the freaking band-aid off. Let's look at it. Let's just put things in place.

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work and the most impactful solutions are never the easy ones. So yeah, absolutely. So I love what you're telling me and that's awesome. But my next question is with your program, how does this work? Are the kids growing food to have in their school lunches at their schools on their school property or how does this work?

20:18
So our Apple project is our, what we call our outdoor edible learning spaces. And we positioned it that way because whenever you say that there is a learning component to something, then teachers tend to buy in a little bit more, right? It's not extra work on them at all.

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And so whenever a school comes to us, say, hey, we want one of your programs in our school, I said, okay, and they want the outdoor learning space, the Apple project. We always build to scale. Like if there is a thousand kids in that school, we will build a big enough raised bed system that every child will have a 12 by 12. So each child will experience square foot gardening in their school, right?

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And so, and that's because, and we teach those concepts. So those concepts that we teach. So they'll grow it and then depending, it really is depending on partnerships. So in our agreement, we always say that we want them to be able to raise edible, whether it's fruits, vegetables, herbs, whatever. And then they're able to either take that home, they're able to do cooking programs in their school with it. So they're able to work with

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either their in-house school lunch program provider or like with Aramark, Aramark does a lot of food tastings when it comes to our products. So they'll do tastings at the school. I think they're going to do one with the hydroponic system, whatever they're going there. So they're going to do food tastings on that. And they're able to utilize that. And it's an active partnership because whenever we started this program,

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The school district was really hesitant, right? Because they weren't really sure, like why would we need that specifically? And they thought that it would be detrimental for the kids to be able to use the product. But I'm like, and I couldn't understand that reasoning. And then, but as we act, as we collaborated and our partnership grew, they really understood the importance of growing it, taking it home, and then doing cooking programs. So they do cooking programs

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of our products. They can use it if like because our hydroponic systems are located in the cafeteria so they can actively see it. The kids are able to pick off of that and eat it if they choose to do that. And if there is enough of the product is really kind of, you know, the concern is if there is enough product, then they're able to really utilize that in what they are serving.

23:05
So, and if they don't use it, then families are able to go into the schools and bring it home. So, it is always a community garden-ish for us. We want to make sure that it's open to the parents. And so, the kids can actively go out there. And if they're out there learning about the root system and they just happen to see a strawberry growing, then they're able to pick that food and eat it, right? That's really the intent of that.

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And also, because if we're doing an outdoor space with them, we automatically build, we automatically plant an orchard for them. So we have, it's always six different fruit trees that we plant on their campuses. And so that way the families and anyone really can go in and grab the fruit that's growing. And a lot of our campuses do that. Like they actively will tell their...

24:03
students or and then their teachers in their community, they'll send out information to their school community to come and get some food. And so, and then they're actively eating it. So one of our campuses is in Central Elementary. They have a couple of raised beds that they've done and that we've supported, we've actively supported this year. And that one is purely community.

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The kids can eat from it. They can use it if they want to in the cafeteria. Their families can come and get that food. We actively say use the food. What they don't use, because it's built into our agreement, 10% needs to be donated to a local food program.

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a percentage of what they're growing to a local food program as well. Okay. So who tends to these gardens and to the fruit trees? So we have, we actively work with their volunteers. So whenever we go into a school, we create what we call a team. So one of our board members will always sit on a quarterly meeting with

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their principal, a PTA or PTO member, and then the teachers that are either championing this on their campus. And the reason that we do that is because we know that their PTA, PTO members will always volunteer. So we do help them with that. We provide them with guidelines on

25:48
This is seasonally what you can plant. This is kind of how when you can harvest. We provide seeds, we provide all of that if we have a signed agreement with that campus. So who takes care of it is the, let's say a fourth grade class will actively have a bed out there and then they'll come out there and they'll plant. And because it just directly aligns with what they're learning,

26:18
then they're utilizing it both as a learning opportunity as well as a way to tend the garden. And some of our campuses have had afterschool programs or they've incorporated it in their 4-H program and they're the ones that take care of those gardens or those spaces in their campuses. So the kids are learning life skills, they're learning math, they're learning science, biology, they're learning.

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words because they have to be able to read the packages of the seeds to know what they're supposed to do with them. So it's just like a little microcosm of education outside at the raised bed. It is. And I think COVID really kind of gave us an opportunity to showcase the importance of being outside, right? And it's because for a while there, we were just all in inside. And I laugh because when we first put the program in...

27:15
A teacher says, oh, great. We can teach our kindergartners the difference in the root system after they go to Google. I'm like, why would you go to Google? Go outside. Go outside and take out a plant and then draw it that way. Draw it and then you can actually actively teach them how to do that. Which is kind of why it's called an Outdoor Edible Learning Space.

27:44
They get to do everything out there. I always like to say is, if you're in art class, go outside, draw something. Then you're getting not only that natural sunlight that we always do, everybody's saying that everybody's lacking vitamin D because the lack of sun that a lot of our kids are getting, but they get to be immersive and it's experiential learning. It's always, and they get the concepts a lot faster.

28:13
Like they can tell you the root system because they picked the plant, they touched it, they felt it, and especially if it's basil or mint or something that smells great. So all of a sudden, it's sensory learning, right? And you're learning, you're using all of your senses to learn a single concept. And so children learn a lot faster that way.

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And we're seeing that, and which is why a lot, all of our programming actually is built on the experiential approach and that it's immersive. And so to us, that's the only way that they will actively embrace the program and they'll have fun with it because you have to have fun, right? I think that fun makes learning a whole lot easier. Yes. So. Yes. Okay. The elementary school that my kids went to. Mm-hmm.

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The principal that was there when they were in school, I cannot remember her name and I love her. It makes me crazy that I can't remember her name right now. She started an outdoor garden for the school. It wasn't to feed the school, it wasn't to feed the community, but it was to have the kids have a chance to learn about how to grow food in a raised bed garden. It wasn't as big as what you're talking about, but she started that.

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And she also started a backpack program for the weekends for kids that were on the free and reduced lunch scale. And some of the foods that they grew went home in the backpacks for the kids. So I have a tiny little experience with this, of your program on a much smaller scale. And I loved what she was doing and I love what you're doing. And

30:05
We actually are going to be doing a farm to school thing on our homestead this fall, I think. I think. A principal of a private school emailed me a couple years ago and said, could you supply us with leafy greens, carrots, and radishes for the school year, for salads for the kids? And I'm in Minnesota. We don't grow those things in the wintertime because it's frozen here.

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So I'm not going to get into this too much because I've already talked about it a lot on the podcast, but we got a grant to build a heated winter greenhouse and the greenhouse framing is up. We have to get it sited in and roofed. And then this fall we can extend our growing and grow lettuces and baby spinach and carrots and radishes for the school. So we're doing our little tiny part too to try to help.

31:03
When I talked with the principal, I said, you might want to approach some other places that are doing what we're doing because we're not going to be able to grow enough for all your kids. Right. And he said, I already have emails out. I was like, good, keep doing that. So you're not the only one who thinks this is important. And I didn't think that you thought that you were the only one. There are lots and lots of people who want to see things like this happen all over the place.

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And you know what I think that, and I've been kind of thinking about this because, um, so I'm very big on collaboration, like so, so big on collaboration. It's not even funny. And, and, um, I, I see the passion and the work that a lot of these nonprofits are doing, like there are so many of them.

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And but I've seen this in kind of the corporate world that sometimes we all get caught up in our little silos, right? And then we kind of like, oh, this is my program. This is, you know, what we do. I'm not going to share it because if I share it, then I'll share the additional resources. But what I've found out is, is that when we work together and we work collectively, we could do so much more.

32:24
I've been actually thinking about, and maybe we did something that maybe you and I can maybe work on, is there is an EarthX, right? Maybe there's already something like this, and I don't know. I could be like, oh, you're recreating a wheel. EarthX started by Trammell S. Crow here in Dallas, Fort Worth, and it really brings, it started to kind of bring in all of the individuals, all the brains that it's trying to look at sustainability. But I think there's an opportunity to do it when it comes to food access.

32:54
when it comes to what we're doing. And so I would like to put together like a conference so we could like collectively see what we could do to kind of move the needle. Because I think that, I don't think we're moving the needle fast enough, right? And I think the reason why we're not moving the needle fast enough is because we're all working individually. Like, and...

33:22
I am the first person to say, man, if one of my volunteers, or donors would wanna support what you're doing, more power to you. Because if you're doing things in your world that is going to impact someone, and I think that is more important than having me keep that donor, right? And it's interesting, my board is like, Shawnee, stop saying that. I was like, no, but I absolutely believe that.

33:51
that I think that the reason that we are not moving the needle, not only on food access, but on obesity is because we're doing it all wrong. We are literally doing it by ourselves and it's individualistic. And it's really hard for organizations to say, I want to actively collaborate with you. And my thing is, is like, I want to actively collaborate with you. How do I do that? How do I find partnership?

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And so one of the things we kind of started that with a local organization here. And I think she, Elizabeth Dry, if you've not heard, she has an organization called Promise of Peace. And she started in Dials for Worth. She moved to Mineola and she's doing amazing things in that little town in East Texas. She reached out to us because she knew she was moving and she wanted us to see what you think, continue her work here. Absolutely. But then we actively started helping support what she's doing in Mineola.

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And that was different for us because we're like, man, we're actively supporting another organization. I'm like, well, the reason that we're doing that is because we may not reach where she is in that community, but with our support, we're actively doing and helping her with her mission, right, in that realm. And so she's doing the similar things that we're doing, but we're actively partnering with her to do that.

35:17
And then I really honestly think that there is an opportunity for us to get together and just specifically target that one thing when it comes to food access. And there is a nugget and a way to do that. But I'm happy to hear that people, that schools are reaching out to you because I think that's important.

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say, let's all get together and like, let's figure this out. And then if we could do that, then I think that we can move the needle a lot faster. Yeah, absolutely. Because the more bodies and the more minds that are aligned and working together, the more things get done. Yes, yes. It's so hard when it's just one or two people trying to do backbreaking, frustrating work and

36:15
gardening can be backbreaking and paperwork for an organization can be the most frustrating thing on earth. So if you've got a bunch of people who are willing to balance and share the load, it makes it so much more doable. Yeah. And I think that there are opportunities and so I've been really thinking about that. One of those things that you kind of have to start thinking about.

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making choices when you're listening to your head, your heart and your gut, kind of, you know, what is it, what it's saying. And it's been kind of leading me to that point where I'm like, I think we need to actively get together and, you know, and, and, and, and, and partner with organizations that so we can, we can impact each other's mission and we can make an impact on that. So we're actually doing that. And we have an event that we're doing in June.

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And it is through a film called A Fine Line. So A Fine Line is a documentary by Joanna James, and she is an amazing individual that's out of New York. And it is actually looking at the hospitality and restaurant industry and how the needle has not moved for executive female chefs.

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it is harder for them to get an executive chef role because they're female. And it's called the fine line of women's spaces in the kitchen. And so we partnered with her five years ago. I think we brought Kat Korra in for our coming edit program. And we just ended when all of this was in my head and starting to kind of like, how do we collaborate at the Universal Line and we're bringing the film back here. I think they are going to be, PepsiCo is bringing the film down here for them. And we're doing a co-fundraising event that night.

38:07
not only to highlight how they're empowering women in that role, but how fresh fruit access and what they do really aligns. It's in that alignment that I think works well with organizations like that. I'd love to see alignments happen like that all over the place.

38:36
courageous enough to say, okay, I can do that. I'm not, you know, we can grow a lot better as an organization if we actively align. And I went to a breakfast where there was a nonprofit consultant there that says nonprofits will only grow if they align. Like, you have to align. I mean, you cannot, we cannot sit in our silos because we can't grow as much as we want to grow.

39:06
So I would love to find ways to kind of align with individuals that you have been around. Because our goal is to take this program nationally and we want to be in 60,000 of the elementary schools. That is our goal. And so we're going to reach it and we're going to reach it one way or the other. And if that's through alignment, then I think we have succeeded. Yeah. Yep. Again.

39:35
million percent agree with you. But it's hard, right? It's so difficult. It is hard because people are afraid of change. I'm not. I'm really not afraid of the unknown. My husband, on the other hand, is terrified of the unknown. Yeah, so is my husband. Isn't that crazy? And I don't know if it's a male-female thing or if it's just a him thing. But I'm the one who's always like, I was thinking we should do this.

40:05
And he goes, no. And I know that he's afraid and I say, okay. And then I just work on him for a little while and I just here and there bring up things that I read about the thing that I think we should do. And so and so has tried this part of the thing I wanted to do and this is how it went. And eventually he thinks it's his idea and then he wants to do it. Wow. Yeah. And then he's not afraid of it anymore. But...

40:33
But honestly, people are terrified of change. You get comfortable in the way that things are done and you stay there. And also people are terrified at the work involved in changing their paradigm. Yeah. So that's where the pushback comes from, I feel like. Is, and you know, and I...

40:59
When I am sitting in a room of leaders and we're doing coaching and I'm talking about how they grow as an individual, we always talk about fear. Fear is one of those things that a lot of leaders and a lot of individuals will tell you is the number one thing that really holds back their growth.

41:28
And so I have, I've read a book on John Maxwell where he's talking about failing forward, right? And so failing forward is a way for you to push through that fear. Because if you know that you're going to, because I think it's not even about the fear. I think it's the fear of not doing well in failure. Like it's, as humans, I think we don't like

41:56
the option of feeling. And we intrinsically, as individuals, we say, oh my gosh, I'm failing, then I must not be doing well. But I think that there are lessons to be learned in failure. And so, and I didn't fail, but if you can fail forward and keep moving, then fear is just an afterthought, right? You're like, but it's hard because I, trust me, I wake up.

42:25
some days when I'm like, I don't know if I'm doing this right. I don't know if I'm doing this correctly. I don't know why I'm doing this. And those thoughts come through my head. And then I meet people like you. And people like you will actively reach out in moments that I'm hesitating or I question what I'm doing correctly or incorrectly. But I think the universe puts people in your path.

42:55
And especially if it's something that God has said that this is something that you will do because you will make an impact and sometimes you just have to stay on that path even if it's hard. It's always about the journey and we forget that sometimes. We always want the end result, right? But I think the fun is in the journey.

43:23
But it's always the hardest, right? It's fun, but it's hard and you hate it when you're doing it. But when you're at the end of it, you're like, okay, that was hard, but now I'm here. But you're right. The fear, I think, is one of those things that even as individuals, whether or not we're leaders in our community or kids, like teaching kids to push their fears is really hard and difficult too. But when you garden though...

43:53
It teaches you failure when you're like, okay, why is that thing not growing? Or what did I do wrong? And you start thinking of ways to kind of fix it and you start thinking outside the box. And I think that I always like to say is gardening for me and I was just out there this morning because I was planting lavender. I was like, okay, how do I?

44:19
know, how do I do it? And you kind of get lost in that zone of, I got to think this through. But what I was actually doing is I got to think through this problem. I don't know what I'm doing. But you're right. Yeah. So fear is fear, but if we can kind of push through it, I think we're better off. Yeah. Gardening is the thing that will teach you the high of success and the low

44:48
A failure. Yep, absolutely. And also, I think that people are afraid to make the big ask. I was talking with a lady months ago, and she's a celebrity in Twin Cities, Minneapolis, St. Paul.

45:09
And she's on TV. And I had sent her an email because I saw something about her being big into gardening and homesteading and stuff. And I asked her to be a guest on my podcast. And I'm a baby podcaster. I just started this in August last year. And it felt like a big ask to email her cold and just say, this is what I'm doing. Would you chat with me? And she did. She went on my podcast. Her episode's released. Her name is Elizabeth Reese. She is the nicest woman. And she...

45:37
I talked to her after and I said, I didn't think you'd say yes. And she said, oh, she said, always go for the big ask. She said, what's the worst that happens? The person says no. Right? And so I like hitched up my big girl pants and I emailed Joel Salatin, who is big in the homesteading and gardening and farming community. And I said, I'd really love to talk to someone from Polyphase Farms, which is his place.

46:06
on my podcast about what you're doing. Joel emailed me directly back and said that he would be honored and delighted to be on my podcast. I almost fell out of my chair. I was so excited I had tears in my eyes because I did the big ask and I got a yes and it's out and it's wonderful and he's a super nice man. If you had asked me last year at this time, if I had ever thought about speaking with Joel Salatin,

46:35
on a podcast, I would have laughed myself stupid. So it's fear. It's thinking that you're going to be rejected or you're going to get hurt or you're going to die. And none of those things is probably going to happen. No, it's really not. So I tell my daughter all the time, I said, ask. What are they going to do? Say no? Then if they say no, find somewhere else because...

47:03
The no is not a no. No is just an unopened door somewhere else. I mean, that's all it is. And so, but you know what though, sometimes that's kind of intrinsically, I was introduced when I spoke a few years ago, somebody says, no is not in her vocabulary. It's true, it's not. And said, but man, whenever I get the, it feels like the 10th no ever,

47:32
You're like, okay, maybe I'm doing this wrong. But it's that fear, right? I think we are our own worst enemy all the time. But I'm glad that you took that leap because that shows courage and I'm glad that you did that. So I'm very happy to hear that they're saying yes because

47:58
And what it is though is, and you are surrounding yourself with passionate people like you are. I am. That could only be the best thing. Only best things will happen when you do that. Yeah. I am so grateful and so astounded at the number of people who have been like, yes, I would love to talk with you. And it really has nothing to do with me.

48:27
It has everything to do with them. People who love what they're doing want to share about it. Yes, but I think more so is that when they share their journey and their passion and other people hear it, it gives those people listening to it the courage to do what they wanna do, right? Yes.

48:50
And so, which is, I'm kind of glad that you reached out because I would, like, I can talk about this program all day long, but I think more so is that what I hear all the time is, we hear how passionate you are about your program. And it makes me think about some of the things that I want to do and I'm passionate about. And it kind of gives them that courage to try it, right? Because then they're pushing through the fear.

49:19
So I think what you're doing is amazing first and foremost, because you're not only putting yourself out there, but you are giving a platform for individuals to be brave enough to talk about their passion and be open with you on why they're doing what they're doing and how you guys can do it together. So I just wanna thank you for doing exactly what you're doing. So.

49:49
Well, you are absolutely welcome and I love what I'm doing and I keep saying that on any time this comes up, people are like, thank you for doing what you're doing. I'm like, I'm doing it because I'm selfish. I love doing this. And it's okay to be selfish. It's okay to do that. It's okay to say, you know what, I'm doing what I love and I'm like, great. So yeah, no, I just, I know how hard it is to get the word out about whatever it is that you're doing. And we went through it last year.

50:18
We started a business, we were selling lip balms and candles and homemade cold press, lie process, whatever soap, and selling at the farmers market and selling at our farm stand. And I'm not going to lie, we did not make a whole lot of money because trying to market yourself with a low budget is not the easiest thing ever. And I was like, if I was having trouble getting the word out, I know everybody else is having trouble.

50:46
I'm going to start a podcast and let people talk about what they do because that seems like a brilliant idea. It is. And it is a brilliant idea. So it's actually an amazing idea. And I'm glad that you're doing that because then whatever... Because people always ask about the podcast that has been kind of brewing on our end. I'm like, I don't have the time for that right now. Clearly, it's just not happening right now. But then...

51:14
I'm getting connected with people like you and then I see the value of that. So I may come and ask you to come be on our podcast to let us know what you're doing when it comes to homesteading because I'm not very familiar with that, by the way. Like homesteading, I need to be more familiar with that. I don't exactly know what goes into that. I can nutshell it for you. Homesteading is wanting to do everything yourself so that you don't have to pay the man.

51:43
for what you need. It really is. I honestly we and the thing that I'm discovering is that a lot of the people that I have interviewed, they had a need that needed to be filled that they could fill themselves. Like I talked to a lady who has a kid who has like psoriasis or eczema or something and they couldn't find anything on the market to ease that up.

52:13
And so she made her own lotions and her own soaps and it helped. And then people were like, can I buy some from you for mine? And it was just a need that they had that they figured out how to fix for themselves and then other people wanted the thing they made. And I may have to get that from you because my daughter has eczema and it's so, she's had it for forever. So, but.

52:39
I love that because my husband and I were just talking about the possibility of like, what about home setting? Because there's a good thing that can you do that? And so I don't know. I don't know if because we kind of live in like a suburban area in North, far North Dallas. So I guess I should go ahead and research what would give us, you know,

53:06
homesteading, right? And so, you know, what would that look like? And so, because he's like, you're turning the backyard into a farm. Uh-huh. I said, yes, I am. Can I have chickens too? I don't know. And so, he's like, I don't think we can do that. So, I don't know if HOA will allow to do that. So, I have to look into that because I am, like one of the things that, just from a personal perspective, I want to do is, because my mom is a doctor, by the way, and that's kind of how I'm going

53:36
I got into the whole herbal thing, the herbal medication that has been around for thousands of years, right? I want to be able to build that. I want to be able to build it and then take it to a school like, you know, schools in Arizona and say, let's see what the Native Americans in this area were using for thousands of years when it comes to medication.

54:01
And so I'm getting all these books because I want to be able to recreate it and say, okay, I don't necessarily, if I have a headache, I can just make this tea and then I can brew it because it's been shown by thousands of years of trials that that's what they did. And so that's what I'm doing. So that's one of my personal things because I'm all about...

54:29
seeing if I can impact my health because I, I, I, unfortunately I have, I'm pre-pregnancy dispositioned because of my family for like type two diabetes, heart disease, et cetera, and things like that. So I want to be able to say, okay, I can't believe that there is not something in nature that can help that or even help alleviate it. So I'm not so dependent on medication, right? I just, I don't want to do that. So if you know of someone, because I'm really putting this together and I'm...

54:56
documenting it and then I want to be able to put it as part of what Independence Gardens does that we're culturally really exploring how they're impacted, how different cultures have impacted food in a positive way when it comes to health. Yeah. You don't want to know. Let me know. So, I'm looking. Okay. I want you to come back a year from now and talk to me because I want to see what you're up to a year from now. Okay. So, we'll have to do that.

55:25
And we're almost at an hour and I try to keep these to half an hour, but I didn't want to cut you off because this was really fun and really interesting. Sorry, I left the talk. You should have cut me off at 30 minutes. No, no, no, no. No, it's fine. If I needed to, I would have. Okay. So, Chonnie, I really appreciate you taking the time to talk to me and I'm so impressed with what you've started with Independence Gardens. Thank you. And thank you for that. And I look forward to talking to you in a year.

55:53
Yes, I will. We'll get it on the calendar at some point. I won't forget. I promise. Okay. I guess I should say, if you want to get to know our program, go to inde That would be good, right? Because my team was like, did you even mention the website? I'm like, yes, I did at the very end. I did. I promise. Yeah. And I'll put it in the description for the show too. So it'll be there. I appreciate you so much. So thank you for what you're doing. And if there is an opportunity for me to be able to help you in the future, please reach out and let me know.

56:23
I'd be more than happy to do that. All right, thank you, Johnnie. Have a great day. Thank you, Mary. Have a good one. Bye.