Joel Salatin of Polyface Farm

Today I'm talking with Joel Salatin at Polyface Farm! Listen to what he has to say about family, farming, and unexpected fame. You can also follow the farm on Facebook.

00:00
This is Mary Lewis at A Tiny Homestead. The podcast comprised entirely of conversations with homesteaders, cottage food producers, and crafters. I feel like today's guest needs no introduction. Hi, Joel Salatin, how are you today? I'm doing great, I hope you are, thank you. I am, so tell me about yourself. I did some research, but my guests don't know what I read. So tell me about yourself and Polyface Farm.

00:29
Yeah, so yeah, so our family owns, co-owns Polyface Farm in Virginia's Shenandoah Valley. My parents came here in 1961, bought a property, and Dad was an accountant. Mom was a school teacher. The farm jobs paid for the land. Dad was quite a visionary and an experimenter and did a lot of experimenting with electric fencing, controlled grazing, composting, mobility, portable shade, direct marketing.

00:58
It was basically a glorified homestead, so that when I wanted to come back to the farm full time, September 24, 1982, we had all this wonderful legacy of experiments and land healing things that we knew would work. We just never done it at scale or to really make a salary. And so that's what we started then. And

01:26
It has been fantastic. What a run. We now have about 20, what, 2022 salaries generated from the farm. And we supply some, whatever, seven to 10,000 families here at the farm to market. We deliver, we supply some restaurants, some boutique grocery stores, and we ship nationwide.

01:56
and just have a wonderful team. We're in pastured livestock. So beef, pork, chicken, both meat and eggs, turkeys, rabbits, lamb, duck eggs, and forestry products. We have a sawmill, and so we sell lumber as well. And yeah, it's a great run. It's a beautiful life, it sounds like.

02:19
It also sounds like innovation ran in your genes because your dad created things and you've gone on to create things as well. Yes, when people ask me what's one of your greatest blessings, certainly if not number one within the top two, is the blessing of growing up in a family that embraced being mavericks. I just simply never had a need or a desire to

02:48
to be affirmed and confirmed by other people. The Frank Sinatra song, you know, I did it my way. That was truly mom and dad's, mom was a maverick growing up, dad was a maverick. And so we just, as an entire, the whole family persona was, you know, we don't need the endorsement of others. We don't need their approval. We're going this direction because we believe it's right.

03:16
And boy, is that a liberating, freeing way to live. Yeah, I'm kind of like that. I have very few close friends, and that's partly because I do things the way I do them. And if you want to come along for the ride, please come along, be ready to help, be ready to enjoy it. If you don't, that's fine, too. Yeah, it is. And, you know, I think farming, of course, everybody has a certain amount of peer dependency

03:46
at some level, but I think of all the vocations out there, the different vocations, farming probably is the most, the peer dependency is the most common because farming is a fairly lonely vocation. You spend a lot of time by yourself. And so the desire to be accepted and affirmed by your...

04:15
counterparts by the next door farmer and that next door farmer and the farming community is extremely intense more than other vocations that inherently tend to be more social. And so I think farming has a bit of a disadvantage in this and certainly

04:42
we see that in the conservatism and the reluctance of farmers to try new and different things. Yeah. So I was watching a video this morning that you were talking on, and I don't know if it was a class you were giving or what it was, but you said something about if you are in your mid-50s and considering starting farming or homesteading or anything that...

05:10
Maybe you should think twice or maybe you should have a young person who can help or something. I'm paraphrasing it badly. So tell me what you think about people who are over 50 trying to get into homesteading. Yeah, well, I would I would qualify that a little bit between homesteading and actual farming. You know, one I realize I'm I'm a whatever I'm a friend of homesteading.

05:40
And certainly for our first 20 years here, this was basically a glorified homestead. There was no, this was not a business. It was not a commercial enterprise. It was not generating a salary by any means. And so, you know, a homestead where you're just, you know, a couple three acres, maybe 10 acres, and you're just basically trying to grow as much of your food as you can, you know, then 50s is fine. Probably not ideal, but it's tolerable.

06:09
But if you think that you're going to, in your mid-50s, get a property and become a commercial farmer and make a living at it without a young partner, you're probably kidding yourself. There's just, it just takes too much physical energy to build fences and cut trees and do the things that it takes to

06:39
have a commercial farm. Now, there are plenty of commercial farmers that are over mid-50s, 60 years old, even 70, but they have a tremendous amount of infrastructure that they developed and created in their younger years. And so if you have a going concern, you can have a pretty long tail off of that. You can enjoy a bit of a halo off of that.

07:09
off of that infrastructure and experiential equity into your aging time. So just because you know a 75-year-old farmer that's doing it doesn't mean that you can at 55 duplicate what he or she was doing in their 20s and catch up to them at 75. There are just cycles of life.

07:34
and realities of life that are critical. So when a person's somewhat over 60 and wants to do this, I always tell them, hey, leverage your life experience, leverage your connections, leverage your capital, and get a young partner, whether they're related or not, and enjoy that kind of collaboration. Yeah, absolutely. My husband and I are in our mid-50s. I'm 54, he'll be 55 in June. And we just bought our 3.1 acre.

08:04
property back in 2020. And luckily, our 22 year old son still lives here. So he helps dad out a lot because it was a blank slate when we moved here and we had to build things and bring things in and get it started. If we hadn't had the kid at home, I'm not sure that we would have done this. Yeah, that was even and that was not even a commercial farm. That was a that was a smaller acreage, you know, homestead type situation. Yeah. So

08:33
I appreciate where you went with that when you started. I was afraid you were going to say, well, we did it. We did it. We didn't have any problem. So, you're actually confirming my, you know, my whatever experience on that. Yeah. So that leads me to my next question. You are older than your mid fifties. So how much hands on work are you still doing at your place? What a great question.

09:03
So I'm still the chief chainsaw guy. So whenever they need a big tree cut and they need chainsaw work done, I'm the one that does it. I move the egg mobile every morning. I handle our herd of cows here, but I don't move broiler shelters much anymore. A lot of the day-to-day, of course, our son Daniel,

09:32
is absolutely in charge of day-to-day operations. So essentially, you know, I pick up pieces. I'm kind of the chief negotiator. So I do a lot of desk work, you know. Well, in fact, this morning, before we jumped on this podcast, I spent an hour and a half over with one of our landlords. We lease numerous properties in the area. And so I'm the one that goes and does the kind of periodic, you know,

09:59
how are things and how are we doing and how are you doing? Are you happy with us? Are we happy with you? Those kinds of, you know, diplomat, I'm, I guess, the chief diplomat. And so, you know, I get to go out and do these kinds of things. I do a lot of the initial, initial discussion if we're going to develop a business relationship with somebody.

10:25
even a customer or a business relationship with an outfit. I'm usually the first, I'm the first contact. I kind of start things, you know, rolling, get the basic pitch and then Daniel and others will sit down and actually flesh it out. Okay, you know, here's what we're actually gonna do. We're gonna come on this date, that date. That's not what I do. I do the overall, you know, kind of visioning stuff. So yeah, I'm out.

10:53
I love, you know, I don't ever want to lose my calluses and my splinters. They're really good for me. Yesterday, I was out, spent a couple of hours with the chainsaw, cleaning the brambles and multi-floor rows and all about an electric fence line that hadn't been done for several years and all grown up. And so I got good and sweaty. That that's my workout. Daniel, now he he is wonderful to watch this, you know, the adult son, you know, kind of take over all this.

11:23
He now appreciates, he's gotten kind of protective of me. You know, I'm pushing 70 and he gets concerned about me overdoing it, but he realizes now these workouts are what keep me young and I don't have to go to the gym and don't have to go to workout sessions, but I enjoy working here. And so he says, dad, if you want another therapy session, that's what he calls the chainsaw, you want another therapy session, we got this little project over here to do.

11:51
And so he calls them my therapy sessions. They're basically, you know, uh, farm physical exercise, but I'm, you know, I'm now very much to have a part-time as far as actually out there sweating and doing the work. Uh, I probably don't do more than. You know, three or four hours a day because I'm doing a lot of desk work and phone work, and of course I'm writing a lot of articles and, and I'm traveling a lot. I'm gone. I'm gone about 140 days a year.

12:20
you know, speaking at conferences. Next week I'm going to Europe for a week to speak in Austria and Hungary. And so, you know, I do a lot of traveling as well. Okay, so I know that you're terribly popular in the US. How are you received overseas? Is it the same amount of people being like, you are the smartest farmer ever, talk to us, teach us, whatever? You know, it's different in different places. And so...

12:49
For example, in the last two years, I've done my first stuff in South America, Colombia, I was in Uruguay, and there the reception has been unbelievable. I mean, just like a rock star, okay, just swamped. But when I go to the most technologically advanced areas

13:19
the Netherlands, it's much more muted. And what's interesting about, especially Austria and Germany, of course, they're all into precision, all about, I mean, that's where BMW is, right? Bavarian Motorworks. There's almost no outdoor grazing in those countries because they do not, they're all about precision. And they say, well, if we let cows go out and actually

13:49
graze their own grass, then we can't mow it as precisely as we can with a mechanical mower. And so in those countries, virtually all the, especially the cattle, are confined in houses, in barns, and they green chop. Definitely all the dairies, I mean, even sheep dairies, goat dairies, all this stuff, I've been on all these.

14:17
and nothing grazes outside. They harvest mechanically, then they bring it into the barns and feed. And they say that way they get more precise mowing of the fields and they get the manure in a place where they can more strategically apply the manure exactly where they want it instead of where the cow wants it. I mean, it's a whole mindset thing. So it's different. I was in...

14:46
I was in South Africa two years ago for the first time. And there again, it was just mobbed. I think the poorer countries, if I may use that, I'm not using that condescendingly at all. I'm just trying to separate the developed, the poorer countries from the rich countries. I think there...

15:10
I'm really, you know, I've been in Bulgaria, same sit, just swamp, mob like a rock star or what? Well, because what we do is so applicable in those countries, whereas the sophisticated techno glitzy countries are so enamored. And of course, the EU, the European Union, subsidizes farms so much, you know, over 70%, almost 80% of the entire EU budget is farm subsidies.

15:40
And that's why the farmers are so upset there that they're starting to cut some of these subsidies. But farmers have had it so easy over there for so long with all these huge, huge subsidies so that they buy extra equipment. They overbuild their buildings. They overbuild all their infrastructure and they've just become accustomed to this subsidized fuel, subsidized machinery, subsidized buildings, subsidized income.

16:09
And so the idea of I'm going to go out and move the animals, they just see it as not as precise and more work. It's easier to just go out and start the tractor, mow an acre, blow it in a wagon, bring it in to the cows, then go and watch the soccer game. Yeah. And I

16:34
Hmm. I don't know if that's a better way or just a different way because I feel like it's not necessarily a better way No, no, it absolutely is not a better way and and the fact and and so the one of the reasons that I'm going to Austria this time, you know, that was one of the countries I said it's not as well received is because these as as the as the farm subsidies wane

17:02
due to the EU trying to move their military budgets up to supply Ukraine with weapons in the Putin thing, the cracks are widening and deepening in that system. When you have a high capital, high energy, high depreciation, depreciable system, that works fine when everything is

17:31
hunky-dory, but you start dropping capital, making energy more expensive, increasing some of those, the cost of fertilizer, all those things start putting pressure on that system and it starts to crumple, which is exactly why we're seeing so much farmer unrest in the EU right now is the crumpling of that prompt up. Well, I call it a farm welfare state. Yeah.

17:59
So you're going over to talk to people about the way that you do it so that they have something to fall back on? Yes, absolutely. I can show I can show them how they can get uh, the same production at a third the cost and Yeah, we'll have a we'll have a great time Okay, good. Um So my my next question is probably a weird one. Um

18:26
How do you feel about the fact that you are so well received and people mob you like a rock star? Because I'm sure when you were a kid and then when you went back to the farm to help your dad, you didn't expect this to be where you'd be at 67 years old. No, not at all. You know, when Theresa and I got married, we were living, you know, we kind of spruced up an old...

18:54
Mud dauber beehive, mud dauber attic upstairs and drove a $50 car. And if we didn't grow it, we didn't need it. Our dream was just, we just wanted to farm full time. We loved the farm. We both did. We both do, still do. And we just wanted to be here. And what happened was as it became successful,

19:22
we realized we were living a dream that many people have that they've been scared to vocalize because if you have any brains at all, no credible high school guidance counselor would ever recommend to an honors student, well, you should be a farmer. I still have a nervous twitch from my last visit to the high school guidance counselor, when she found out I wanted to be a farmer, you know, and I thought I was gonna have to do CPR on the floor.

19:50
know, to get her back up. And she said, you know, smart people just don't do that. And so I think that there is this kind of, well, there's a stigma culturally, but there's a sequestered desire in a lot of people to do this, but they won't even let themselves dream about it because

20:20
It's unaffirmed by society. And so when Teresa and I, you know, our family didn't have money, we weren't wealthy. We were just, but people saw the happiness of our animals, the productivity of our pastures, the happiness of our customers that were being able to get, you know, really exceptionally good food, you know, that whole thing. And we were not getting rich, but we were living fine, very happy.

20:47
that just resonated. And so I think it's that, it's that dream. And I have, I mean, I have a stack, it's inches deep of letters from people around the world that we didn't think this was possible. And we found your stuff and we started doing it and it works. And we've left our town jobs, we're farming full time. It's just, you know, thank you for making this.

21:14
possible, we never would have thought it possible otherwise. And so that that's where we are. And I'm just so blessed to have been able to, um, to encourage and inspire people who had given up on that kind of life to have hope again. Hope is a, hope is a powerful thing. It sure is. Um,

21:43
I think it's just sad that farmers and mothers and people who work in the trades are considered to not be smart. It bothers me every minute of every day.

21:59
Yes, yes, it does me too. It breaks my heart actually. And so society has marginalized over the last few decades. It has marginalized, yes, these trades. And so nobody wants to be a plumber, an electrician, and a welder, and a small engine mechanic, and all these things.

22:28
And the trades are desperate for young people to go into them. And so one of the things that I promote is good, not bad farmers, but good farmers. And I do make the distinction there are good farmers and bad farmers, but good farmers are the first line. You know, we have the new thing in our country, you know, first responders, first responders kind of developed after 9-1-1, you know, with the fire.

22:56
fighters that went into the towers, first responders, we revere first responders. Well, let me tell you something. The first responders to our nation's resource base are water, air, soil, the resource equity upon which every one of us depends for every waking moment. The first responders in that realm are farmers, especially good farmers.

23:25
If we want our resources well taken care of, perhaps we need to revere again, honor again, appreciating again that vocation that's been so marginalized for a while. Absolutely. I would put another word in the middle of abso and lootly, but I'm not going to do it. You're right.

23:50
I try really hard not to use the big swear words on my podcast because I don't want to alienate anybody. So I'm trying to think what else to ask you because I'm just so happy that you were willing to chat with me. I guess my last question because I'm going to try to keep this to half an hour and I figure you probably have a big answer is if you want to.

24:17
farm or have a homestead or just do something that requires you to use your hands in the dirt or raise animals. How do you get started? Do you just go to YouTube and watch videos and go, okay, I get it. I can go do that. Or is there like an ABCD to follow? Great, great, great question. Yeah. So obviously today we have more information than we've ever

24:47
but nothing beats experience. And so you need to fill up where you, our term here is fill it up, wherever you are, whatever you are, whatever you have, fill it up. If all you have is a condominium, fill it up. You can sprout mung beans in a quart jar on the windowsill. You can have a little 12 inch by 12 inch vermicomposting kit under your kitchen sink for

25:15
you know, for your kitchen scraps. Or goodness, if you want to go a little bit higher, in my book, Polyface Micro, I have a chapter in there on how to have chickens and rabbits in a Manhattan apartment. The point is that very seldom do we go from zero to, you know, to a, if we use the mile per hour, we don't go from zero to a hundred in...

25:43
in no time. It takes time. And the same thing it is with this. Seldom does your greatest dream or fantasy drop in your lap as one whole, as one complete thing. It comes over time incrementally as you show faithfulness developing your experience equity, your wisdom equity.

26:13
and even your mentor equity, whether it's personal or YouTube or books or whatever, but you develop these over time. And so the critical thing is start. The last part of your question was, do you just, yes, yes. The answer is yes. You just start. You start with something.

26:44
Fill up where you are and that next, whatever that next iteration is, once you've filled up where you are, that next iteration will become more apparent. You are just reaffirming the thing that I say to myself and my friends all the time. Do what you can with what you have where you are. That's exactly right. Awesome, so I'm not crazy. It is correct. Okay, good to know. No.

27:10
All right, Joel, I you have no idea how much I appreciate you taking your time and sharing it with me and my listeners. I'm sure that they're going to be thrilled to hear what you have to say. Thank you, Mary. It's been an honor and a delight. Come see us sometime. All right. Thank you so much. Have a great day. You too. Thank you. Bye. Bye.