Mother Nature's Apprentice

Today I'm talking with Pam at Mother Nature's Apprentice. You can follow on Facebook as well.

Pam's new book, Wonder and Joy for the Wired and Tired: A Guide to Finding Inspiration and Well-Being in a Wonder-Filled World, releases in August 2025.

 

Muck Boots 

Calendars.Com

If you'd like to support me in growing this podcast, like, share, subscribe or leave a comment. Or just buy me a coffee 

https://buymeacoffee.com/lewismaryes

00:00
You're listening to A Tiny Homestead, podcast comprised entirely of conversations with homesteaders, cottage food producers, and crafters, and topics adjacent. I'm your host, Mary Lewis. Today I'm talking with Pam, at Mother Nature's Apprentice in Kentucky. Good morning, Pam. How are you? I'm very well. How are you today? I'm good. How's the weather? It actually  is nicer today. It's a bit overcast here in beautiful Northern Kentucky.  We've been having

00:28
like most of the country, some hot weather, but we did get some rain and I think we may get a bit more today. How about you?  It is lovely in Minnesota right now. The sun is shining.  There's big puffy clouds in the sky, bright blue, and it's about eighty to seventy five degrees, I think, if that it's the first really nice morning we've had in  just under a week because it's been really muggy here. So.

00:56
I was very happy to drink my coffee sitting on the porch with the window open and see the  rogue raccoon we have visiting us.  Oh, the rogue raccoon. Yes, we have one of those. How often does that little critter visit?

01:14
Yeah, our little guy looks like he has a leg that is maybe hurt because he looks like he's hopping a little bit. I've been calling him hop along in my head. And  we don't have a live trap big enough to catch him. Plus our cats would get caught instead of him.  And my husband wants to  end his suffering with a firearm. And I am okay with that. The problem is he's never where we can get to him.

01:43
They are smart. They're very smart.  Yep. And I saw him actually  face on toward me the other morning and the sun was coming up.  He's so beautiful. I'm like, God damn it. I don't want to kill this animal. He's gorgeous. Yeah. Those are tough calls, aren't they? I hate it. I absolutely hate it. And I know it's part of the life that we have chosen, but I hate it so much. Pam, it makes me sad. Yeah.

02:10
Yeah, I know we've been there a couple times. don't have the beautiful weather. You have, but  we get things off the pond and whatnot and it just breaks my heart every time.

02:23
Yeah, it's hard, but if we don't put him down,  a car is going to hit him. And I don't know which is worse. So we'll see what happens.  Okay. So tell me about yourself and about Mother Nature's apprentice.  Ah, well,  I'm,  I was born and raised in Indiana.  And actually I'm a dual citizen. I'm a Canadian and a U S citizen.  Lived here in

02:52
until my early twenties and then found my way actually to Western Canada, the beautiful province of British Columbia, which is just north of Washington state  and  lived there for quite a while.  But you know, as beautiful  as Canada was, I mean, I've always loved nature and backpacking and an incredible geography there. You know, when you're born somewhere, that's still where you consider home.

03:22
So  I found my way back to the Midwest  and not Indiana though, my husband and I, you know, live as I said in Northern Kentucky and we have  sort of three acres that we've reclaimed.  I'm  a  wife obviously, a mom, a grandma. Our kids are grown. We've got  a bunch of little ones running around  and we love  nature.

03:50
Professionally, I guess that's the other hat I wear. I have a  PhD and earned PhD and I'm  a nurse practitioner clinician and an epidemiologist where I'm also an adjunct prof here  at Northern Kentucky University where I investigate winter joy, wellbeing  and  nature, how nature has such a wonderful, powerful impact on our health and wellbeing.

04:20
And you're an author too, right?  Yes, that was unexpected.  As an offshoot of a research study I did,  which talked about wellness versus well-being and nature and extraordinary ornery, cetera, I decided to  indulge in my  passion for creative writing. So I started the blog, Leather Nature's Apprentice, and it talks about nature and

04:49
all the things I just mentioned and some funky kind of nature, quirky things too, because I am a science nut. But that kind of dovetailed into a book, which I can't believe I did. That's been a journey. You people were very, thankfully, very kind about the blog and developed a bit of a following. And I said, you should write a book. And I guess even more than that, at the same time when I was

05:18
presenting some of my research findings on well-being at conferences,  it really resonated with people and I got asked to talk more and more. And I initially thought, you know, I'll publish this in an academic journal like most academics do.  But I realized that's, you know, that's not where most people are going to see this. This is information that will help all of us.  So I guess that gave me the final.

05:44
Courage, that's the right word, to write the book. So yeah, it's my first book. It's  coming out August 12th.

05:55
And what's it called? Well, I guess I should share that shouldn't it's called. It's called Wonder and Joy for the Wired and Tired, a guide to finding inspiration and well-being in our wonder filled world. What a gorgeous title. Oh my God. Oh, thank you. Wow. It has little animals and plants on it. People say it looks quite joyous. So I thought, that's

06:25
That's nice too.  I looked at the cover on your Facebook page and it looks like a children's book cover. And I was like, this is not a children's book, but it's so cute.  Well, it's whimsical, isn't it? I mean, I guess that was  joyous. I wanted it to be uplifting and kind of Wonderworld-like. And  yeah, thank you.  I'm glad you liked it.  Is it self-published or is it through a publisher?

06:51
Well, it's through a very new press called Bear Paw Press. And that tumor was,  have you published before? Like a book or anything? No, I have not. Wow. Journey again is an understatement. I didn't know anything about this.  And so I went to a writer's conference and thankfully  I did have some more mainstream publishers in an ancient express interest. But

07:19
there's just all kinds of  pitfalls and challenges to that. And so I thought, you know, I'm going to go this route.  It's been a  great experience. working with  Carrie Barnum at New Shell Books, who's a wizard and wonderful to work with.  So it's  it's sort of  hybrid, I guess. And but it gives me so much more control. And plus, it

07:46
It allowed me to get the book out sooner. Oftentimes with mainstream publishers, I didn't know this. You can wait a year to two years to get your book out there because you're just in a queue.  And I thought, no, you know, I don't want to wait that long. So I'm going to  jump into the deep end and see what happens.  This is where I am.

08:11
Isn't it amazing how technology has opened up so many doors to so many people on so many things? It's incredible. And I think that's part of what's been fascinating about this. As you found this morning with my delay with my computer, I have a love-hate relationship with technology. mean, obviously I have to use it when I'm teaching and giving talks, but I'm certainly not

08:41
proficient in it, but I'm learning. I'm learning so many new skills  and I'm learning more about, you know, things for the blog and obviously for the book. It's just, it's been a  real learning curve and wonderful.

08:57
Awesome. Fantastic. I love it when people take what they're good at or what they're really passionate about and write about it and then teach other people with that because I am a lifelong reader and learner and books have been my best friends my entire freaking life. So thank you for writing a appreciate it. I will be picking it up.  Oh, thank you. That's even better. Well, you know, because that's the other thing with technology, we're  reading less.

09:26
Fewer people are actually picking up a book, whether it's  even on Kindle, but definitely something that's hard print in their hands. And that really is quite sad, isn't it? But I  guess  we'll change with the times and we'll adjust in a damp. But that's nice to hear that you enjoy reading.  I do. And  the only reason I have  a tablet with the Kindle app on it is because  I like to read before I go to bed.

09:55
and I don't have a light by my bed. I have to get up out of bed to shut the light off. And with the Kindle,  it's backlit. You know, it's a black screen with white letters. And so I can read and that's like all asleep. I just put the book down on the side table and go to sleep. Plus I used to read and my husband would come to bed and he'd be like, can we shut the light off now? And I'd be like, yes, because I had an actual book, you know, you can't read in the dark. You have a book book.  So that's the best thing about it.

10:25
You you sound like my husband.  He kids me because he is  a rabid reader. He loves to read  and he does the same thing. He loves his Kindle and he also reads before bed  and makes fun of me probably because of my poor technology skills.  But I  just, I'm one of those people who loves the paperback or hardback. I love the smell of the books  and  I'm, I

10:52
still like to read in that way. But I think  I'm finding the conveniences, just as you said, of why a Kindle is so darn good. Yep. I love, love, love my tablet. It's small.  I don't have to, I can just prop it up against the pillow in front of my face and read it until my eyes slam shut. It's great.  Okay. So  you,  I'm not sure where to start on the rest of the questions.  You grow plants, right?

11:21
do.  I do. I  love nature. I love gardening. And I guess  I always have.  My mom  was a wonderful gardener. I we just had a little backyard garden in Hammond, Indiana, but I have incredibly fond memories of having  time spent with her growing morning glories  and suspended along  a chain link fence. was just a sea of blue.

11:50
collecting four o'clock seeds and it was just wonderful. And  I actually remember, I think the first time that I realized I resonated or rather nature resonated with me.  And I was six years old.  I can remember this clearly and long story short, there was,  it happened to be a total eclipse that day of the sun. And I was sitting outside and my mom had made one of those pinhole cameras and

12:18
We were waiting for it and I was sitting on the grass next to some beautiful milkweed plants and we had been watching  the monarch butterflies  with the eggs and the larvae maturing into pupa and they're about to hatch. And I got so excited and I went to go and tell my mom that and wouldn't you know it,  I tripped and fell on  a rusty lid  of a bird feeder  and cut my hand open, believe it or not.

12:48
This has related to nature because it also made me love the body and biology and instinctively even at six years old for some reason I didn't freak out because I  grabbed my hand, put pressure on the cut,  not knowing anything about it, right?  And the bleeding of course stopped, right? Because you occlude the arteries. But I ran to my mom to tell her of my excitement. And of course she saw this blood and looked like a murder scene, I'm sure.  But anyway.

13:15
the gentleman next door was a physician, stitched me up, I was fine. But later that day, I  can still see this just like yesterday. I'm sitting with my bandaged hand on the grass  next to these  monarch butterflies. And my mom comes out with two popsicles  and the pinhole cameras. And she sits next to me and we watch this incredible eclipse together. was  nothing, Steven Spielberg could not have

13:44
scripted this better. The eclipse ended  and slowly but surely all these monarch butterflies hatched. They emerged and there was this beautiful sea of orange and black.  And I remember feeling just  such incredible joy and wonder  at the human body and the eclipse and nature and, you know, my relationship and love for my mom. it

14:10
No doubt, it propelled me to  go into science and nursing.  And I love nature. And so, yeah,  I've been a plant grower  probably since age six.

14:25
Very nice. So do you have gardens at your place? I do. do. I don't know if you got a chance to see it, I sort of, my husband and bought this Charlie Brown neglected lot. Actually, it was called a garbage lot, believe it or not. But I loved the position of it. It was next to a pond and I love the area. It was very safe and green and all the good things you want in a home. But it was a disaster. Mary, it was horrible.

14:55
Developers had dumped all their unused material and  other garbage there and weeds had overgrown it. was full of clay. But  I'm sure you've had this. think every listener out there has had this who is a farmer or a gardener. You have this vision. You  see the potential of that barren undeveloped property. And I guess I had that gestaltish moment where I...

15:21
I saw this barren piece of land with no plants or trees and I saw this  garden that  had mature trees and it supported wildlife  and  it  nurtured our souls.  And I said, heck with it. I'm buying this quote unquote garbage lot and the two next to it where all the garbage was. And my husband and I over the course of the last few years have  far too many blisters  or bad.

15:50
But anyway, yeah, we  created this garden on three acres and now thankfully it's full of life  and beautiful perennials that come and go and raccoons.  You  know, all kinds of critters.

16:08
Yeah, the critters keep it interesting. That's what I'm going with.  That's good word for it. It keeps us on our toes, doesn't it?  You know, it's always an experiment, isn't it? You  you try to figure out what's going to grow this here or what's going to eat what, but  it's nice. That's what nature's about, right?  Yeah, the second summer we were here, we had a doe that showed up  just after my husband planted seedlings.

16:36
And she ate the tops, just the very, very tippy tops of the seedlings all along the row. And my husband came in and he was like,  there's deer prints in the garden. And I said, are there any plants left?  And he said, yes. said, that witch, and he used a different word,  ate the very tippy tops off of every single seedling in the back row.

17:02
And I said, well, will they come back? He said, yeah. He said, if she doesn't eat the rest of them.  And don't you find too,  if I don't know if they come back, but some years they'll eat, like go through my petunias or whatever. And the next year they don't touch them. And it's so interesting because I think I'm able to at least sometimes outsmart the deer because I know which ones tend, which plants rather, tend to be, you know, more deer resistant. And it's like,

17:31
Uh, no, just like humans have our personalities. I find the rabbits and the deers and the chipmunks, you everybody has their own taste. So it's like, it's always, it's always hidden. Yeah. Well, we think the same doe came back the next spring, but she had a fawn with her and I got to see it.  And I was like, you can eat everything in the garden as long as you bring that baby back every morning. I don't care.  That's right. I know. I know. And

17:59
I mean, how can you resist that, right? I mean, if you truly love nature, you have to realize that's nature. So you have to be flexible and just know it's all good. Just all good.

18:15
Yeah, and you said you've listened to some of my episodes. If you have, you know that I am a sucker for babies. Baby animals are my favorite thing on the earth.  I know  it's the eyes. Well, it's not just the eyes. It's their little bodies. But when they look at you with those  eyes,  it just melts me every time.  I hear you. Yeah, we have a picture of our dog  at

18:44
she was exactly eight weeks old. So she was the little puppy  and she's sitting on the couch and she was only five pounds  and she's looking directly into the camera lens  and  she is the cutest, sweetest, most adorable thing I've seen in forever in that picture.  She's almost five now  and there are times when she lays in a certain position where she's facing me  and I see that little puppy face still and I'm like,

19:13
Oh my God, you're never going to lose this. It's your eyes. It's her eyes that give me that thing. So you're right.  Oh,  that's right. And the love,  always  have to bite my tongue sometimes when I  speak with colleagues or some other scientists  and they talk about how some animals,  not some animals, animals don't feel love in the same way humans do, or they don't express emotion or  don't feel depression, et cetera, et cetera.

19:43
I bite my tongue because I, you know, it's been proven more and more that that's just false.  And  I think anybody who is an animal lover wants to sit here and go,  no,  that's absolutely categorically not true. Yes, in very clear layman's terms for me, if someone said that to me, I'd be like, my ass, they don't love like humans do.

20:09
Thank you. You said it far more eloquently than me. wanted to say something much stronger, but you, that was perfect.  Uh-huh. My, my dad taught me really well. He is a very educated man. is  very bright  and has every word known to man stocked in his brain.  But he always says that sometimes his fair word is the correct word. Well, you're absolutely right. And you know, have studies now that have proven that people

20:36
who occasionally swear, whatever occasionally means,  have better mental health  and have less anger, anxiety, et cetera, than people who don't utter the odd colorful word. And I thought, well,  I should be pretty healthy.  Oh, me too, darling. I'm right there with you.  And  I'm actually worse with inflection than I am with swearing. Like, if I am really angry,

21:03
I am going to find exactly the right word. It will not be a cuss word. And the inflection on it will make it sound like worse than any swear word I've ever uttered in my entire life. Oh, that's right. And I'm trying to, oh, it's escaping me, I wasn't there a show or it was a book, something, but they talked exactly about that. They, I think it was a woman and she was from the South. And of course, growing up, you know, her, her upbringing was very proper and she was not allowed to swear.

21:33
But boy, could she say like butterfingers in a way that you knew that that meant that  F off was there.  It was just perfect. And I thought, how wonderful is that? Yeah, I love the Southern God bless her heart thing that they say. It just makes me giggle every time someone says it.  that can mean so many things, right? mean, it's perfect.  Yeah, I'm really actually thankful I did not grow up in the South because

22:03
I feel like Southern bells are  the best at the sarcastic insult without ever saying anything technically wrong.  agree. I agree. And that's been actually something that I have learned about Kentucky. And it's been wonderful where we live here in Northern Kentucky. We're right at the intersection of Indiana, Kentucky, Ohio,  and really about

22:29
25  minutes away from Cincinnati.  So  it's a very sort of Midwest accent, so to speak. But if you go like even half an hour, 40 minutes south toward Louisville, Lexington,  that lovely, lovely Southern drawl kicks in with a lot of the sayings that you're talking about. And I'm always,  I'm always delighted to go down there because it's like kind of a whole other world. I'm always smiling and learning all kinds of new.

22:59
new phrases.  Yes. And let's not imply that Southern bells only say cutting things. They don't. I'm sure that there are lovely women who live in the South who say flattering, wonderful things that they mean too.  Well, of course, of course. But that's one of the beauties of our country, I think, is when you  travel to the various areas and you see these marvelous cultures and  these  traditions. It just is  so rich.

23:28
And I just think it makes our life  so much more full.  It's lovely.  It really is. And since we're talking about things being said certain ways and picking up on ways people talk,  the name of your place is Mother Nature's Apprentice.  And when I saw that, was like,  ooh, I love that.  And the reason that I love that is because I refer to myself as a kitchen witch because I love to cook.

23:56
I could just as easily be a kitchen apprentice. mean, you know, same dip.  But when I was a kid,  I used to love to spend time in the woods because I grew up in the pine woods of Maine.  And  my mother would say, what did you do all day? And I would be like, oh, I just woodwitched it all day.  And she's like, what does that mean? And I'm like,  I'm a woodwitch. I spend all my time hiking.

24:22
dubbing around in the creeks and walking out the lake. I said, I'm just a Woodwich. And she was like, I think you might be. That is, I love that. I've not heard Woodwich before. So if you don't mind, I may actually coin that. would attribute to you, of course, but that's perfect. You know, I got to tell you, you may be in Minnesota, but we should hang out because I think I think we would.

24:50
Best friends, because you're right. mean, that's  my happy place. You put me out in the garden or the woods and just want her. Want her, want her. I mean, I would love it. I love it. Yep. I was really lucky. grew up in basically  they have a thing called the pine barrens in Maine.  And we weren't in the pine barrens, but we were surrounded by white pine trees everywhere.

25:18
And we had a beautiful lake about a mile and a half behind my house. So you could either walk out through the woods or you could take a dirt road that went out to the lake. And I did both all the time. And we also had a really beautiful creek about half a mile from our house. So I had the best of all worlds growing up. It was fabulous.  Oh, so did you grow up in, in Maine? take it. that how you did? Yes.

25:45
Wow, good for you.  Marty and I went to Bar Harbor  and I had to a talk up in that area. We just drove around and  my gosh, I  fell in love with the Northeast. It was just, it's almost a  spiritual place. I loved it. And I meant to ask you, listening to you, have you been out to the West Coast with  the Redwoods yet?  No, and probably won't ever because I don't love to travel.

26:15
I love where I live.  Well, I can relate to that because it's crazy traveling today.  Oh my gosh, the airports don't get me started. But Marty and I did.  I had never been there.  And  we flew to San Francisco and then rented a car.  I have to tell you, Mary, it was spiritual. I don't even know if I can articulate.

26:40
I mean, we've all seen the photos of these beautiful giant trees and you know, how massive they are when you're standing next to them. But to actually witness that and to stand there was, I  cried.  It literally brought me to tears.  I actually, I think I posted it on the website. I'm hugging  one of these massive trees. And of course it's dwarfing me, but  the thing that struck me was not only their beauty,

27:10
and their height, but the quiet was  stunning.  And as big as these trees are, apparently they're close together because their root systems are shallow and they intersect with each other and it strengthens them right as they're rooted in the ground, which I didn't know. But  it  was something. So there's any way I could just transport you with Star Trek technology, I will send you there.

27:41
Uh huh.  Yup. And I don't know if you know about this, but there are trees in Maine called, well, there used to be, I don't know if there are any left, but there used to be pine trees  called the King's Pines.  And they were, you were forbidden to cut these pine trees because they used them for the, the mast posts in the King's ships back before America was America. And

28:07
I've seen one in my lifetime. My dad knew where they are and they have like a symbol carved into their trunk that shows that they're a king's pine.  Whoa. Okay. I'm marking this down. It's called a king's pine. King's pine. I'll have to look that up. I have never heard that, but good. And so there are still trees that are marked and you can't hurt them. Is that what you're saying?  You can't cut them. You are not allowed to cut them. You will be fined.

28:37
Lots of money.  But  I don't know if there's any still standing because it's been a good 25 years since I saw one. So I don't know.  But I feel like, I feel like, yes, you and I could be best friends forever. That would be great. But I feel like I was meant to talk to you today because the, the love and the appreciation that I hear in your voice for the earth is just ringing.

29:04
And part of the reason I started the podcast is because I wanted to give people a platform  to talk about the things that they do,  why and how they do them and what they love. And you are fitting right in because  you are doing things to promote, protect the earth.  And  we homesteaders and farmers are all trying to do that too in our own ways.  Well, that's very kind. And you know what?

29:33
I'm glad that came through because I  do.  I don't know how to describe it. I just feel probably like you and probably most of your listeners out there have this deep, innate love  and connection with the natural world.  And  it's something  difficult to share, but you know it because you  can feel it  and  we need more of it. And I love, I meant to tell you too, I love...

30:02
the name of your podcast and blog because I thought about the word homesteader.  And I thought, you know, I know in the traditional sense,  it  brings up this image of  pioneers and  the American West, et cetera,  and people living off the land, which is of course what homesteading is all about. But I think the beauty of that word is that it has evolved.

30:29
And, you know, homesteaders, you're right, can be someone who maybe even has a small plotter, is trying  to live sustainably with  a balcony  full of  plants or food for their families or for  their well-being.  And  I think it's more a mindset than  sort of a place because it  has to do with, think, I hope I'm saying this right, sort of our mindful connection and our place within.

30:58
the natural world and appreciation for  life.  And I think what you're doing is great. And thank you. Thank you so much for giving me and others a platform.  We need  to help each other and get the word out and do what we can to protect this  incredible, wondrous world that we live in. Yes, absolutely.

31:22
don't for one second think that I'm that selfless. I also wanted to talk to people who were doing some of the things that we're doing here because I was lonely.  But that's okay and that's beautiful, right? Because  it is really at the end all about connection, isn't it? With each other and with other living things and well,  something bigger, however you define that.  that's actually nice to hear. was great that you're honest about that.

31:53
Yeah, I needed to be able to be like, we got chickens and we got our first little tiny egg and have other people get it. Because you say that to somebody who lives in the city and buys their eggs at Whole Foods and they're like, what do you mean a little tiny egg? Yes, yes. And we've all been there. I'm sure we have all been there. People look at you like, you're one of those, what is it called? Woo woo, those crazy, you know, out there people. And it's like, no, no, that's not what we're.

32:23
talking about it  and it's hard to explain. If you don't get it, you're not going to get it, right? Yep. I say that all the time. Oh good. And I try to be patient with people, know, not,  I didn't know half the stuff I know right now, 25 years ago about how all this stuff works. I had no idea. Cause you can only know what you know at the time with what you've experienced. And so

32:51
When I talked to my, well, it's okay. I'm on tell a story because I need to tell a story. My best friend in high school, when we graduated, she went on to become a business major in college. That's what she wanted to do. And we were best friends. Like we were at each other's houses all the time. And I went on to move in with a guy that I probably shouldn't have married and have a daughter. And I called my best friend.

33:19
a week or so after my daughter was born and I was high, you know, you have kids and you're in love and  y'all want to tell the world about this wonderful thing you created like no one's ever done it before. And  she politely listened and she was like, I'm so happy you're happy, blah, blah, blah. I gotta go. And I'm like, okay, good. Love you. Bye.  When she had her daughter, she called me about a week after she had her daughter and she said,  Mary, she said,

33:46
I am so sorry that I was so  short with you when you had your daughter.  And I'd forgotten about it.  And I said, okay.  She said, I had no idea how in love I was going to be when I had my first baby and I didn't understand. And that's the biggest, I don't know, example I can come up with with you can't know what you don't know until you know it.

34:16
That's right. That's right. And you know, I'm, wish you could see me now because I'm smiling and I'm nodding as you're speaking because I agree the same thing happened to me with, with kids. Um, but even with the study I did, I, I, I was getting just disillusioned, guess is a good word with the wellness model, so to speak, because so many people are still so depressed, so sad, you know, chronic diseases are still a problem. So I.

34:46
You know,  I researched all this stuff and then I thought, okay, I'm going to find out  what's going on. What are we missing? Where are the gaps in the literature?  And so I did the study and the results were great. But you know, Mary,  what hit me was what came back that those individuals and it was international, was across, you know, gender and demographics of, you know, country boundaries and age  and, you know,  economic status.  And those people had scored highest in wellbeing.

35:16
were those that spent the most time and most frequency in nature.  They appreciated this extraordinary ordinary, I guess,  that we're talking about, you know,  the feeling of holding your baby for the first time  or even the hand of someone you love for the last time, the power of that and all these things that we're talking about and they get it. You know, they understand how powerful the emotion of wonder.

35:45
is in the notion of joy, not happiness, right? Joy. And  so I get these results and I thought, yes,  you know, this is what I had hoped. But you know, as a researcher,  you can't bias the study, right? So you just have to report the facts. So  I thought, oh my gosh, am I doing the statistics wrong?  So I sent them out. I sent them out to independent statisticians.

36:13
who know far more than I did. And I said, could you crunch these numbers? And can you tell me what I'm finding? Is that what's really going on here? And they went, yeah, this is what we're missing. People,  we're not connecting with nature like we did even 10 years ago, get alone 50.  Technology, we're sitting at computers and  social media.  don't get me started on how dangerous and negative that can be,  And on and on, but you hit it right on the head.

36:43
It's  we need to get back to well-being  and  the joy and the wonder of common sense  and what really matters, right, for a wholehearted joyful life.

36:59
I agree completely with what you just said and I'm going to add to it.  I feel like we have gotten so far away from feeling our feelings. I understand that you don't want your child to throw a tantrum in the middle of Target because they didn't get a toy. But the feeling that your child is feeling is valid. And even as an adult, you know, if something goes wrong, you and it hurts you, you are allowed to sit down and cry about

37:29
It is fine.  Absolutely.  And I, again, I'm going to give you a big hug over the phone right now, because that was another huge thing about  the wellness problem. Why it's not serving us right now.  For things I don't even have to go into next. But wellness and happiness have sort of co-opted into one big thing. This whole  search for happiness, chase happiness.

37:57
has  actually made us sick.  And it's making us unhappy because what it's doing is exactly what you're saying. It's blunting  the natural  spectrum, I guess, of being able to express and feel the full spectrum of emotion, right? Because we're supposed to be happy all the time. And  if you can't do that, if you can't be angry, if you can't be sad when you really need to be sad, you feel guilt.

38:27
And then this whole toxic positivity thing starts to go on and it's very difficult to break.  And I actually talk about that in the book, how we have to kind of jump off that hamster wheel. This whole happiness wellness hamster wheel is  not healthy and we need to stop it. Yes. And maybe your book can help people figure out how to stop  the hamster wheel from spinning in that direction. I  haven't read it yet because it's not out till next month.

38:57
But I hope it does. And I understand that people have jobs and they need to go to work and they need to behave like quote unquote normal human beings and do their job  and not let their feelings interfere. I get all that. It's fine. But I also feel like if you spend your whole life stuffing your feelings, what happens is that you get stuffed to full and then you explode in some way. That's not good either.

39:27
You're absolutely right.  You're absolutely right.  And the whole key of course is to,  well, again, don't get me started, but it also dovetails into resilience. When you talked about, you know, the kids, when we tell our kids to not feel this or you have to feel that, you know, it's okay to fall down. You know, it's okay to be disappointed and it's okay to lose whatever that means because, you know, what that does is it teaches us how to bounce back and

39:56
And a great analogy is like, again, going back in nature, mean, trees  get stronger from thunderstorms and being  in heat and wind. You know, they grow stronger roots and they grow taller when they're in difficult and various environmental situations.  You can apply that same adage to humans in many ways. We need those to learn so our brain can develop new ways to figure out how the heck to get around that, should we encounter that again.

40:26
Yes, exactly. And part of the reason that I  love the choice that we've made or we made five years ago, almost today,  to move to our homestead, to  buy land and have a homestead, is that  here  we have the opportunity to embrace nature and grow a garden and have chickens and have home,  farm fresh eggs, basically.

40:53
If I need to go outside and yell because something is wrong, I can step outside and yell and no one gets mad at me.  I love it. But you're right. Right? I mean, that is, that's your little piece of heaven and  it's, oh my gosh, I wish I could see your place. It sounds gorgeous.  It just sounds so healthy and so peaceful. And I can hear it in your voice too. You clearly love what you're doing  and  you love where you're living and it's

41:22
It's wonderful when you hear that,  when anybody hears that in  someone's voice. So good for you. I'm very happy for you. Thank you. I'm really happy for me too. You have no idea how long  we planned and thought and dreamed for this place.  My husband and I have been together 22 years, 23 years this fall. And I think within the first three years of being together, we were like, okay, someday we're going to have

41:51
acreage and we're going to have chickens and we're going to have a big garden and we're going to have apple trees and we have apple trees, Pam. Oh my God, we have apple trees.  Oh my God.  So this was manifested  long before it came to be. And I probably sound like a fanatic when I talk about it, but we are so happy here. Like  never been happier in a location in my life other than the house I grew up in.

42:19
It's not fanatical. All what I'm hearing is joy. I'm hearing joy in your voice and that's that is obvious. And, know, again, when you're when you're in that place where you're in a healthy relationship and a healthy environment, it everything truly does fall into fall into place. And that doesn't mean that your life is perfect. I mean, there are bumps in the road. Crap happens. You know, it it it happens. It's life. But

42:50
You know,  the joy part of it is what sustains us. And that's why it's different than happiness, right? Because when those mountains, those bumps in the road come, you you go, this  stinks, this really stinks. But you know,  I'm gonna make it through this,  whatever that means, and it's gonna be okay. And you feel, I think the word is blessed, maybe because, you know, of...

43:16
religion or spirituality, however you want to define it. But I say that to Marty too. I feel blessed  and  joyful. And I hear that in you. I just love it. Yeah, I always say whatever doesn't kill us, it's going to make us stronger even though we might want to die. That's right.  Yep.

43:39
Yeah, I've been there, done that. I hear you. And I think everybody out there, you know, they can relate. I mean, no one has a charmed life. Everybody, no matter how wonderful it is, you know, you're going to wake up the next morning and God forbid, you're going to find a breast mass or someone you love is going to get sick or pass on and, you know, you're going to lose your job, whatever. But, you know, that's life. That's the journey, right? And you have to embrace it. And that's what wholehearted living is, I believe, right?

44:10
Yes. And that's,  that's exactly what's missing in a lot of people's lives. They're not living wholeheartedly. They're just getting through each day. And  I don't want to sound Pollyanna-ish, even though I always do, but it would be really cool if people would get to live  their lives, like really fully live. That's right. That's right.  And that's, that's the

44:36
The problem though, I think, we  are, you hit it in the head, we're surviving often, but we're not thriving. I  was given a  quote recently, and if you can indulge me, I want to read it because it resonates with exactly what you said.  And it was a quote from the Dalai Lama, and I may misquote it, so forgive me a little bit. But  he was asked  what surprised him most about humanity.

45:04
And he responded quickly and said, man. And when asked why, he said, well, because he sacrifices health in order to make money. And then he sacrifices money to race after health. And then he is so  anxious about the future that he doesn't enjoy the present. And sadly, the result is that we neither live in the present or the future.  But then he dies never having ever really lived.

45:35
And I probably butchered that because I'm certainly not the Dalai Lama,  but I thought, isn't that the truth? We just don't get it until it's too late.

45:48
Yes, I think I've read that before and went, yup, exactly. That is exactly what people do. Yep. Yep. All right, Pam, we're at like 45 minutes. try to keep you my gosh. But that's fine. Where can people find you? Okay. My blog is mothernaturesapprentice.com. It has a Facebook site and a website.

46:18
I guess my  author's side, suppose I should give that now. It's just  pamstevenslanebauer.com and that's Stevens with a P-H.  Do I have to spell the name because it's kind of hard to pronounce? I can spell it for you. It's L-E-H-E-N-B-A-U-E-R. Yes, thank you.com.  And yeah, I'm listening to you and

46:45
all this wonderful stuff you're inspiring me to do a podcast. So I may start to do that a bit more, but  thank you.  I can't thank you enough for this opportunity,  lovely to talk with and I love your voice as I told you before we started and I love your podcast. So thank you. Well, thank you for all that. You're making me blush  and  thank you for your time, Pam. I appreciate it. And as always, people can find me at atinyhomesteadpodcast.com.

47:15
Pam, I hope you have a great day. You too. Thanks, Mary. Bye.