Redwood Seeds

Today I'm talking with Kalan at Redwood Seeds. You can also follow on Facebook.

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00:00
You're listening to A Tiny Homestead, the podcast comprised entirely of conversations with homesteaders, cottage food producers, and crafters. I'm your host, Mary Lewis. Today I'm talking with Kalan at Redwood Seeds in  California. Good morning, Kalan, because you're not in California right now.  Good morning. Yeah, it's 10 a.m. here  where I am in New Zealand. Tomorrow, for me, right? Yes. It's Tuesday for you.

00:28
Yeah, that's right.  Yeah, I've interviewed a couple of people in Australia and New Zealand and  it's so confusing because for me it is  4.03 in the afternoon on  Monday.  Yeah, definitely. It's confusing for me as you've seen trying to um set up meetings with people, especially the states just went through the time change.

00:52
Now it's a four hour difference for me. then when New Zealand goes through its time change in about another month, then it becomes a five hour difference the next day. Uh-huh. I, every time I talk to somebody who's that far away, I say that it's, it's actual time travel because it might as well be. Yeah. feels like it. Whenever we travel down here, we basically miss a day.  It's crazy. You lose an entire day. oh

01:19
Okay, so I want to talk about redwood seeds, but I also would love to know why you're in Austria in New Zealand.  Yeah, definitely. Well, I married a man from New Zealand 20 years ago. So we come down here  a couple of months every year during our off season  and spend time with family. Well, that is a hardship to have to go to New Zealand, boy. Yeah, yeah, definitely. I mean, it's different. We come down here or not really tourists, so we don't like.

01:49
You know, it's less of a vacation and more just like my kids, go into the public school system when we're here and we  sort of just live normal life, you know, but we get to stay on the farm with em my in-laws. And that's really, really wonderful. That's really interesting. What do they farm?  They're both retired now, but my husband grew up on like a mixed em sheep  and cattle ranch. oh

02:17
the kind with like 2000 sheep, they're shearing for wool and that kind of thing. Okay, cool. That you are a very interesting lady. I'm very glad that I asked to talk to you. so tell me all about Redwood Seeds and what you do. Okay, well, we are based in Northern California. We're about three or four hours north of San Francisco up in the foothills of Lassen Volcanic National Park, actually. So if you're looking at

02:47
California, we are in the eastern slopes, the eastern foothills at about 2,500 feet. And we have a organic seed farm. We grow organic vegetable, herb, flower seeds, and sell them in packets, essentially. We started doing this in 2009. And then...

03:11
have  now we're expanded into like about 70 different retail stores. So we have seed racks in those stores and send seeds to the stores, you know, a few times a year for customers. And then we also have a website where we sell our seeds.  It's redwoodseeds.net.  And  sometimes I sell at like different festivals and markets and things like that.  I would say that I call us a farm based seed seed company.

03:40
grow the majority of the seed that we sell. I do  purchase some  extra seed  from other organic seed farms, mostly in the western states.

03:54
Yeah, we usually offer about 150 different varieties. um All of our varieties are open pollinated, which means that you can, they're not hybrids, essentially is what that means. And you can  use traditional seed saving techniques  and uh save the seeds  and you'll get trutatite results. Most of, many of them are heirlooms,  which means that the variety is like pre 1950.

04:22
but we also have a lot of really great varieties that have been bred using traditional plant breeding techniques  since 1950. Okay. So since you do this for a living, I have a question.  I bought a 60 day watermelon seed from, I want to say it was burpee, but I could be wrong  and I'm pretty sure it's a hybrid. Okay. So,

04:51
If we were to save, if we get any melons out of it, I bought 12 seeds, we're praying we get watermelons out of it this year.  If we get watermelons, which means we get seeds, and we plant those seeds, if we save those seeds and plant them, is there any chance that  we'll get seeds producing 60 day watermelons  next summer? There's a chance, yeah.

05:15
The way that it goes is that hybrid, it's called the F1 generation. Sometimes you see hybrids referred to as F1s. That's the first generation after the cross has been made.  That watermelon had two different parents that were crossed together to make the hybrid. Then when you save seeds  from the hybrid, the next generation is called the F2 generation.  That's when you start to see the genetic diversity come out. Seed breeders do this on purpose. A seed breeder

05:45
would make the cross, get the F1, then save the seeds from it, and then plant them. You might plant 100 seeds from it, and you might see 20 or 30 different types of melons pop up, or however many, but you'll start to see genetic diversity. So you could theoretically plant out a lot of that F2 generation and look for the 60, whatever is closest

06:14
to the 60 day melon that you loved and save seeds from that one and then do that again for like seven more years. And you might be able to stabilize that hybrid into an open pollinated variety. That's like backwards breeding, right? Yeah, that sounds like a really fun science project. may have to try that. Yeah, that's what seed breeders do. Okay. I just, knew there was something about hybrid seeds that it may not come back true.

06:44
That's the thing. That's why when you're saving seeds, um that's just to start with open pollinated varieties. And so that's what we do. We only grow open pollinated varieties um so that we can save seeds from them and we know that they're going to be true to type. Okay. Thank you for  humoring me in my question because  I wanted to ask somebody who really, really knew and I figured you would really, really know.

07:12
No, it's kind of a common question actually, or like people have this thought that you can only grow heirloom seeds if you want to save seeds, but it's really the term is open pollinated. Open pollinated means that basically it's not a hybrid. Okay. Thank you so much.  As I sit here with a big smile on my face, because now when my husband asks, I can be like,  yes, we can save the seeds. Yes, you can plant them, but,  but is the key word there.

07:41
Okay, so do you have a background in this  or  how did you get into savings? Yeah. uh No, I don't. I mean, if you had asked me when I was a teenager,  if I thought I was going be a farmer, it would have been like the last thing on my mind. um And  I didn't really know what I was going to do. did go, um I went to UC Santa Cruz  and was a language studies major. So I learned to speak Spanish really well. um

08:11
but and studied like linguistics and journalism. um But it was during  that time, like in my early  20s, I also became garden curious  and started taking, like I took a garden class in college. And then I um met my husband and he was traveling through Santa Cruz,  doing like a rock climbing tour of the Western States. um And  I went and visited him in New Zealand on my spring break.

08:40
And he had a big garden going over there. so I remember we, we just sort of started gardening together really.  Um, and then we lived in New Zealand for nine months and  his parents let us  put in a garden, like, you know, in the back, couple acres of their property.  And, um, I don't know, we just, got really into it and we traveled back and forth between New Zealand and us for a few years. And then we ended up.

09:11
buying some land in Northern California where we didn't really know what we were going to do, but we knew that we wanted a rural lifestyle. We ended up starting to grow seeds on contract for larger seed companies like Seeds of Change and Fedco Seeds. And we did that for a few years from like 2006, 2007. And it kind of quickly became obvious that

09:38
to really make a living doing it, we needed to get our own label and start packaging seeds in packets rather than selling like a pound of seeds um for a relatively low price. um So we did that in 2009. We just kind of got some coin envelopes from Office Depot and had a stamp made and started stamping packets. And my husband started making wooden seed racks and we  literally like showed up at Chico Natural Foods

10:07
with a seed rack and seeds in the back of our car and asked them if they wanted to  start carrying our seeds in their store. And  luckily somebody was in a good mood that day and they said yes. em And we're still in that store today. So. so that leads me to my next question. Are there regulations from the state of California about selling the seeds that  you produce?  Yeah, definitely. I mean, you have to register with the CDFA. em

10:37
California Department of Food and Agriculture.  And we are registered seed sellers.  As a registered seed seller, you have to like adhere to their packaging requirements and their germination standards and all of that. And they have, you know, like the local county ag inspectors who can and do sometimes do inspections.

11:00
So, okay. I figured the government would have their fingers in it. Yeah, definitely. It's not, it's not onerous. I mean, the, the  more difficult standard is the organic certification. You know, we are certified organic by CCOF California certified organic farmers and have been since 2007,  I think.  Um,  so that's a yearly inspection where an inspector comes out and they mostly want to look at our

11:29
paperwork uh and then they tour around the farm as well. So how hard was it to get your certification because I keep hearing that getting certified organic is an utter pain in the ass with paperwork and it's expensive. It is expensive.  It's about a thousand dollars a year. uh California has, ah oh they did have, I mean I'm not sure how much of  a cost share they're gonna have this year. It's been kind of

11:57
decreasing, but it used to be a 75 % cost share where  you would get reimbursed that much by the state of California for becoming organic. um Now that I know what to do for the certification, it's not that difficult. um when you start out and you just don't really know what they're looking for, and maybe you don't really know how to keep records, ah it can be much more difficult.

12:26
I became certified organic when I had to like fill out a paper form, but now it's all digitized, you know.  So I don't know, I have a friend who's, who's signing up on it right now. And honestly, if you, if you know how to fill out applications and tick the boxes, then  it's not too, too difficult. If you're on a piece of land that has previously been farmed conventionally,  then it becomes more difficult um for sure.

12:55
Okay. And then  since, since you're someone who sells seeds that you produce yourself,  um,  I assume that every state is different, but if you were,  if you  grew,  I don't know, some tomato variety and you save the seeds and you wanted to give some to a friend in California,  that's fine. Right? That's fine. Yeah. But

13:23
If you wanted to sell it to a friend, can you do that on a small scale and not have to do all the bureaucratic stuff or is that a no-no?  Oh, I'm sure you can do it. Yeah. I mean, and I think that like you don't have to become a licensed seed seller in every single state to, my business is based out of California. I'm selling the seed from California. So that's where I have my seed selling license from. I mean, that would be.

13:52
really a lot of paperwork if I needed to become a seed seller in every state. We definitely ship seeds all around the country. Yeah, it's so funny since I started the podcast over two and a half years ago, I have talked to people all over the country and many, many of them, I'm guessing at least 85%, maybe 90 % have started a business.

14:19
around their homestead or the craft that they make or the food that they produce. And every single state has different laws regarding that kind of business. Yeah. And I'm like, could we maybe find a standard here for everybody? That would be cool. definitely. Yeah, know that. Yeah, definitely. There are also many different standards. It's true. It's true. Yeah, I don't know. It's it's

14:47
That end of things, mean, there's always,  for me as a farmer, and I'm sure a lot of other farmers, it's like, we started because we just want to farm and we want to do agriculture, want to grow things or um work with animals. But the business side is always a steep learning curve.  And definitely for me too. mean,  if I could go back and do it all over again, I would have probably studied like plant biology and business or something, you know, or

15:16
Kind of business major and when I had the chance to be in university, um I back in those days, I looked at business majors and I thought they were like selling out to the man or something. uh,  but now it's like, those are the skills that farmers also need to succeed in having your own business. So, um, I've had to like belatedly learn all of that.  And in fact, I'm, taking an accounting one-on-one class at my community college right now.

15:46
Um, so. Well, that's good. mean, I, I  say that I have got to know itis, which means that I have an overactive need to know.  And I'm always taking some kind of course, whether it's a lady just sent me a course on raising quail.  Interesting.  Cause we're, looking into doing that on our place. Cool.

16:13
I haven't had a chance to sit down look at it yet because I've been busy with podcast stuff and oh yeah, dishes. There's always washing dishes to do here. Definitely. And so I'm hoping to get a chance to sit down tomorrow afternoon and look at the course and see if it's videos or if it's written or how it works. But very excited about this. I don't need to know how to raise quail. I could probably just go get some quail. My husband will build the coop and we'll figure it out from there.

16:43
But because it's interesting and because I have got to know it is I have to the course. There you go. Okay. have, I have questions about number one,  what kind of produce do you grow to save seeds from? And then number two, what's the process that you go through to save the seeds? Yeah. Um, you know, we really  save seeds from just about most crops.  Um, everything from corn and beans to lettuce and tomatoes and squash and onions and.

17:14
Um, most of the major vegetable types we save seeds from and increasingly more and more, um, flowers too. Like I would say that flowers are, I don't know, 30 % of our seed sales now are 40%. Like it's more and more. When we first started, really, I don't know that I was anti flower, but I was definitely like, if I'm going to grow it, has to be something to eat, you know,

17:43
But as we've progressed, I see more more uh value in growing things for pollinators and just for beauty.  so we have more flowers now  and a lot of herbs too,  medicinal herbs like yarrow and milkweed and  things like that.  I'm so happy to hear  milkweed because we need the monarchs to keep coming back. Yeah, definitely.  We have a really big patch of milkweed now. uh

18:13
And the thing is, like, I never see monarchs. Like, rarely do we ever see a monarch.  Instead, we get that milkweed beetle that loves the milkweed, that red beetle. um But it's there in case they want to find us. So,  you know, we grow all the produce, but uh and my family eats from our gardens, but  we don't sell any produce. So it's really different than

18:40
a regular mixed veg market garden operation. Our process is that we plant our main summer gardens usually about May 20th through June 15th. It takes me about three weeks to plant everything. And because we're up in the foothills, like our growing season, I don't bother getting things in the ground before then because we can have frost in mid-May.

19:07
I will have all my spring crops in like lettuces and things that can take a light frost. um But that's our main planting season is the end of May.  And we basically like plant these really big gardens,  which  it really is like some like we're farming, but we're also like garden scale. Like we have five gardens spread out on our 40 acres.  So each plot is about, uh,

19:38
60 feet by 60 feet or they're not huge. Like I did the calculations last year and we actually like grow all of our crops, like 60 to 80 seed crops a year on about only a half an acre. Like not a really big space. It's really intensive, like mixed production. You know, like I'll have like 30 tomato plants and maybe 200 lettuces and

20:08
like 100 squash plants  of a variety. And so we plant everything and then we can basically just let it grow all summer  and do the weeding, but we're not like continuously harvesting the vegetables like you would for  a market garden. Instead, we just let everything ripen and go to seed. And then our main seed harvest  starts like kind of the end of August.

20:34
through the end of October. So we like two or three months of intensive  seed harvesting and cleaning. the process for each variety is really different.  Okay, yeah. So what's the most difficult seed to save? ah

20:55
They're all just really different. um Like for example, know, tomatoes, I'd go out and I pick tomatoes into five gallon buckets. And then we smash the tomatoes  up into like this pulp. And then you let them sit and ferment in the buckets for three or four days  and stir them daily. And that actually like um breaks down the enzyme coating around the seed to that inhibits germination. um And it also kind of

21:25
breaks down all the tomato pulp um and then you add water to those buckets and pour off all the pulp and you're left with the seeds at the bottom of the bucket using water to clean them. So  that's not extremely difficult, but it's like a process, you know? um And um so there's the things that you  harvest and you process wet, like tomatoes and squashes or melons or cucumbers.

21:52
Those,  all, there's a degree of like cutting open the fruit, scooping out the seeds.  And then you have to figure out how to separate all the pulp and the gunk from the seeds. And usually that involves water. It's kind of like gold panning, actually.  Often, often the good seed will sink to the bottom of your vessel and then you pour off everything else with water and then put it on a screen  and let it dry.  I would label the ones that you have to do wet as squick.

22:22
That would be the squick,  squick, squack process. Yeah, definitely.  Um, yeah, I mean, it's kind of fun. It's,  it's really hands on.  Um,  and then everything that you process dry, uh, that's like most of your flower seeds, your lettuce seed, all the brassicas,  like kale or cabbage,  um, radishes, carrot seed, radishes. Radishes are actually very difficult because it.

22:51
I don't know, have you seen a radish going to seed? Makes those like kind  of... Yeah, it's like, well, each of those pods only has like four seeds in it. They're not very,  and the pods are really difficult to shatter. It's different than like kale pods. Kale pods or arugula, they just shatter right away. But the radish, man,  you really have to bash them. And we don't have  really fancy threshing equipment.

23:18
I have some equipment for winnowing, the threshing part, um so there's a lot of stomping and stuff that goes into radish seed. um But basically it's like you harvest the dry seeds and you have to thresh them. So you like break open the pods. um Same with beans.  And we often like

23:43
just throw all the seed on like an old bed sheet and then literally stomp things with our feet  or  things like that. And then you have to winnow it. So you use air to blow away all of the chafe. And so we do have some equipment for that. We have this really cool  machine called a winnow wizard that was created by Mark Lutera up in Oregon.

24:08
and it has a huge hopper that you can pour the seed into and a fan and an agitation tray. And so it's cool because I can like turn it on and get it set right and then walk away from it for a half an hour while it just continues to winnow the seed and the good seed falls into a bucket. yeah, I mean, there's a lot of like harvesting seeds, piling them up in bags.

24:36
where they continue to kind of dry for a couple months and then cleaning them as we, as we get to it. So my house definitely like  in  this time period of two or three months, there's a corner of it that just gets like stacked full of bags of drying seeds. Well, I was going to ask you what kind, I mean, I don't want you to tell me exact numbers, but  what kind of space do you end up needing and  what's your inventory like? I mean, are we talking?

25:06
hundreds of thousands of seed packets?  Yeah, well, I would say that  we maybe sell about 50,000 seed packets a year, but we have an office space. yeah, we used to have this whole thing would be in our house and then it moved to a back shed and it's moved around a lot over the years. uh There's definitely like now there's the farm production part of it and then we have an office uh at our

25:33
It's our old elementary school was closed and now it's our community center. And so I rent the old teacher's lounge as my office space. So  all of our like cleaned seeds that are just in bags  live there in the office and we do all of our seed packaging in the office, um not in my home anymore. So um I don't, we don't like pack everything into hundreds of thousands of packets. Instead we pack.

26:02
more like as we need. So we'll pack like 50 to 100 packets of a variety at a time and then sell through those or send those to stores  and then pack more as we need it. So the majority of our inventory is stored as bulk. um like on-demand printing? Yeah. Yeah. It's kind of like that. Cool. Yeah. So, but we pack it all by hand.  We basically know how many

26:31
Seeds are in these little spoons that we have. We have like these little teeny spoons, some like from tablespoon size down to like 1 64th of a teaspoon size. Maybe we even have a smaller one than that. And so we've counted, you know, over the years several times and we have that recorded. So we know that like a quarter teaspoon is about 25 cucumber seeds. So we pack, pack the packets like that.

27:00
Nice. Okay. I try to keep these to half an hour or at like 27 minutes. So I want to say for the listener, anybody can save seeds. We do it with basil seeds every year and we haven't had to buy basil seeds in four or five years now. Awesome. Yeah, absolutely. Everybody should try to seeds. Yeah. And they come back beautifully.

27:28
Yeah, I will say that if people want to hop on my website, I do have a pretty robust section about seed saving on there. So uh there's a lot of information  and I have a YouTube channel that has like two videos on it. But one of the videos is like an hour long seed saving uh Zoom class that I taught a couple of years ago that gives good info to. That's super to know. Thank you.

27:56
And  I mean, if people don't want to save their own seeds, I'm sure that if you want to buy seeds that have been saved, Kaylyn  would be happy to sell them to you. Yeah, absolutely. Thank you.  But there are things that everybody can do for themselves on a small scale that are really simple. And I feel like if I'm in Minnesota and I can save basil seeds from the basil we grow,

28:22
probably smarter than buying it from Kaylin in California for me to do. Yeah, absolutely. The more people who are saving the seeds, the more secure our seed supply is. Yep. And with all the crazy that's going on in the world right now, I'm going to say it again. I say it almost every episode. If you don't know how to cook from scratch, learn. If you have any place to grow any kind of food, grow it. Learn how to do it and grow it.

28:51
And if you don't know your local grower, your local producer, get to know them because shopping locally, supporting your local growers and producers will save your butt 100 % of the time.

29:06
Absolutely. I will die on that freaking hill.  All right, Kaylin, where can people find you?  At redwoodseeds.net  and at redwoodseeds on Instagram. Okay. Are you on Facebook at all? I am on Facebook. Yep. Redwood seeds on Facebook. Okay. So if anybody has questions or if they want to go see the video about saving seeds that Kaylin put out,  that's where you find her. oh

29:36
Thank you so much for your time, Kalen. I really appreciate it. Nice to chat, Mary. Thank you. As always, you can find me at atinyhomesteadpodcast.com.  Kalen, I hope you have a great rest of the day because you have a whole day in front of you. Yeah, I do. Yeah, it's awesome.  Yep. Thank you. All right. Bye. Bye.