Upward Spiral Goat Service

Today I'm talking with Josh at Upward Spiral Goat Service. You can also follow on Facebook.

00:00
This is Mary Lewis at A Tiny Homestead, the podcast comprised entirely of conversations with homesteaders, cottage food producers, and crafters. If you're enjoying this podcast, please like, subscribe, share it with a friend, or leave a comment. Thank you. Today I'm talking with Josh at Upward Spiral Goat Services. Good morning, Josh. How are things in Otter Tail County, Minnesota? Good morning, Mary. It's really good. The rain stopped sometime overnight.

00:27
Yeah, did you guys get bad storms up your way? Because in Lesor, we had some pretty good thunderstorms going on. I saw lightning once, but and the wind picked up after half of the day. But no, no, it was just a pretty gentle rain all day. OK, good, because it was a little spooky here last night. The dog actually barked at the thunder. I was like, why are you barking at thunder? You can't fix it.

00:54
Okay, so tell me about yourself and Upward Spiral Goat Services and what you guys do. All right. I'm Josh. I've kind of discovered farming in my adulthood. My parents both grew up on the farm to some degree and I, as a travel opportunity, I learned

01:24
about wolf willing workers on organic farms. And that's where I first saw regenerative management, intensive grazing. And I decided to make it my business.

01:38
Okay. And so what is your, what do you do? What is your business? Um, I, uh, I have my herd of goats, um, my breeding herd specifically, and I move them at least once a day. Um, I bring them to other people's properties for a fee and I'll move them through, uh, especially for managing buckthorn and, uh, really weedy places. I guess they.

02:08
They love brush and they eat a lot of like pasture forage as well, but they prefer brush. So it's a, they thin it like, they'll stand on their back legs and they get the leaves up right as high as you can see. So it's a really drastic difference and it looks great. And I'm moving towards kind of a environmental like management.

02:36
sort of side of things where I've got a lot of test plots and I'm trying to see just how good I can make it look. Okay, full disclosure, I wrote an article for River Valley Woman, it's a regional magazine out of Mankato area, a few years back about people who have a business doing the same thing that you do, they're based over toward Montgomery, Minnesota. So I am aware of how this works, but the listeners probably aren't.

03:06
Um, what Josh does is he, he has his goats go to places where people need their brush and their, their undergrowth and their tree lines cleaned up. Or like, I assume that if a park has buckthorn, a buckthorn problem that you could, you could take your goats there and they would take care of it. Is that how this works? That's true. Yes. Okay. And

03:31
So my questions are, because I was terrible when I did my article and did not actually address this, can the goats do this work in the wintertime too? I just went to a pasture walk outside of vining here, which is like a neighboring town, and that was all about bale grazing with cattle. And I...

03:59
It wasn't until then that I started describing what I've been doing this past winter as bale grazing. Um, and yeah, they, the answer is yes, they, they have a really drastic effect in the winter because I'm feeding them hay. There's not much for them to eat, but they will, they peel the bark off of the buckthorn and they'll eat the stems way back a lot more than they would in the summer. Um, and their manure.

04:29
and the waste hay is a lot more concentrated. I don't have to move them over as much land. So I've got this big strip of tree line that I'm watching and the difference is already really dramatic. I love it. Okay, and then the other question I have is, I know that they eat the leaves and they eat the stems and they eat the bark, but do they eat the plants all the way down to the ground? I mean, if there's a...

04:57
If there's a trunk that's three inches in diameter, will they eat the trunk down to the ground? No, no, definitely not. Okay. Um, yeah, I work with my buddy Cody. He has his company, Jonas & Company, and that's brush clearing. So he's the brush clearing specialist, and he helps me with treat like fence lines, cutting fence lines and stuff. Yeah, the big stuff, they don't eat wood. They'll eat...

05:27
Um, uh, they won't eat lignin, but they do eat cellulose, which I think is kind of the same thing, but lignin is more hard and like that's actual wood. I think that's the line. Okay. And the other question I have is how hard is it on their teeth? I mean, how long can I go do this job before they start to destroy themselves? I don't know. I think they're made for it.

05:56
I think they prefer it. Honestly, I know they're in better health when they're on the brush rather than just a soft forage. And they'll, they rub up their whole bodies against trees and I'll look behind them and an oak tree will just be covered in, this spring, it was just covered in fur. They love it and I'm sure their teeth are the same. I think they like it.

06:24
Okay, I was just wondering because we, I don't want to talk about my dog today, but we have a dog and she gets like a chewy thing that she eats every day for her teeth. It's called dental life and it's supposed to help keep her teeth clean and it's really hard and I've read stories about dogs cracking a tooth on things that are supposed to actually help them. And I was like, huh.

06:53
I wonder how long it takes a goat to wear down their teeth eating brush. Yeah. That's why I asked. Like a beaver. Yeah, exactly. Okay, so do the baby goats go out and eat too? Yes. Yes? Yeah. I've been surprised. They'll be eating the really soft forage like within a week. But...

07:22
I let them pretty much naturally wean and they might be on their mom for a year. But they eat forage pretty early, really early. Okay. And how many goats do you have, if that's not a rude question to ask? Not at all. In my breeding herd here with the bucks that I have, I have 27.

07:48
And I have a separate herd that is my finishing animals, and that's nine in that group. So I have, that's 36. Okay. And does it, I don't, I don't want to assume genders here. Does it matter whether the goats are female or male? Do they just pretty much do the same job? Does it matter? No, they do the same job. I've noticed that,

08:16
I was trying to slow down my growth. I'm intent to have a bigger herd, but I'm trying to kind of go up and then down a little bit before I go back up. So I took a break from having the does bred. And now this spring, I noticed when I did, I bought a new buck and I brought them in and the does were, it seems like they're all bred. And then their forage consumption went way up.

08:46
So I think, you know, if sex comes into it, that might be a big part, because they're raising, they're growing animals now, once again, where they were just full grown adults for a little while and maintenance, and now they're growing animals right now. Now they're eating for two or three instead of just one. Yes. So they're hungry, they're gonna eat more, of course. That makes sense. Okay.

09:14
So how long does a goat live? Because I don't know. Yeah, I'm not sure either. I think all the ones that I have are pretty young. I think it's like a cow where they can be eight or nine if it's, if, you know, you, you're really working them, but if they're kept more like a pet, maybe more like 15. I'm out of my, I don't know.

09:43
Oh, that's that's fine. Um, so basically they can do the job Until they can't eat or walk around anymore. I would assume Okay. Yeah, I had a dough that had a Disease I think it was CAE chronic arthritis and cephalitis I think it's it is and it's That like really wore down at her joints on her rear legs

10:13
and she couldn't walk anymore. I think she was one of the older ones. But other than that, I haven't had any issues where they can't eat. They're all hungry consistently. I'm glad to have that. That's good. Yeah, I bet. Yeah.

10:40
So you told me a little bit at the beginning about this, but when did you start doing this business and how did you decide on goats to eat brush? Well, so I met my partner, Chloe, in, it would have been 2019. And I'm on her family's farm now and we live here.

11:10
Her dad, Al, had a dairy and I got to work on the dairy and that was some of my first farm experience. I was then painting my grandpa's shed. I really liked it. And when I had the chance, after COVID had been around for a year, I think it was 2021, I went traveling with a friend of mine, Hannah, through this program called Wolf, Willing Workers on Organic Farms. And...

11:40
Um, I went to a pretty big organic, raw goat dairy on the West coast. That was Marsha's farm. Um, and I really liked it. I really liked the goats. I really loved the dairy. Um, and the work, I like farm work a lot. I think chores and, uh, some regularity in your life. It, it keeps me responsible. It keeps me accountable. Um, but.

12:10
The next farm we went to was Katia's farm in Oregon. And that's a really small hobby farm. She had a few cows and a few goats. She had chickens and rabbits and I loved it. I really, it was, it was this magical little spot in the valley and the nutrition I got there made me a lot healthier and happier. I could feel it and

12:40
She did this, she moved her animals to a different spot every day. And seeing the difference in the ecosystem and in the soil and hearing the bugs and the birds and everything, it just seemed so much more vibrant and full of life. And at that point I was reading books by Joel Salatin and by Michael...

13:13
I forget the name. It's The Omnivore's Dilemma. It's a really good book. And I was kind of turned at that point. I knew I wanted to do this kind of grazing specifically. Okay. It's a long story. No, no, that's fine. Because that's what I need. I need the stories. That's why I do this. I love the stories behind how people come to what they're doing. So, so do you okay?

13:41
I'm guessing that you're not doing anything like selling goat meat or selling goat milk. That's not the goat's job. I am selling goat meat this year. Okay. All right. Okay. And how do you feel about that? Because I mean, I'm assuming you have a minor attachment to these animals. Yeah. Yeah, it was harder than I thought it would be because I've raised chickens and

14:10
I slaughtered and butchered 70 chickens in one day, and it was a really big job. And I got over it, and they were raised for that purpose. And I ended up really liking the time I got to spend with family and stuff. But yeah, the goats, I mean, I'm with them like every day. And it's, there is some attacks.

14:40
And yeah, it was kind of hard bringing them up to the butcher. And that one with the bad legs, I, with a friend, I butchered her myself. And that was, that was hard too. But with her, I mean, it was, she, she couldn't walk and it was, it was either let her die or take advantage of, of her, you know, her life and use it for our family and that's.

15:10
Um, so I was, I was more content doing that, but these were animals that were more just call animals. I didn't necessarily want them in the herd. And it was, you know, sell them on to someone else or, you know, start my, my meat business and what, which is part of why I'm raising goats, it's for the, the meat that I produce with this kind of grazing. So it was, it was a challenge, but it was why I'm doing it. And, um, the meat is.

15:40
really really good. I'm happy to have it. Yeah. I think one thing that keeps me in the right headspace about it is that when I'm grazing the goats and I see what they're eating, like I eat gandalines and stuff, but the buckthorn and the grass and all that, I see it and I'm choosing what to put them on because it looks tasty.

16:10
And I'm not eating it, but I get to eat that goat or, you know, we're thinking about doing dairy someday and we can drink that forage as delicious milk. I think it's, you know, it's why I feed the animals so well, in part. Yeah, that makes all the sense in the world. Part of the reason I asked you about how you feel about having to, to cull the animals that you raise is because...

16:39
I feel like lots of people think that farmers are hard asses, that they don't have feelings about their animals, that animals do a job and that's it. And I know, I know that people like you get attached to their animals and they're doing everything they can to get the best out of the animal they're raising but also treat that animal the best they can. And you can't help but have feelings when it's time for that animal's life to end.

17:08
It's just the way it is. So for anybody listening, farmers are not hard asses. They're not heartless. They love what they do. They love the animals they raise and they do the best they can for them. That's what I'm gonna say anyway. Yeah, I would agree. It is the, like that book, it's the omnivorous dilemma. It's like, I choose to eat meat. So.

17:37
I'm really lucky enough to give those animals the very best life possible. And that's my challenge and my dilemma all the time is that it's a big part of my life. Yeah. And I think part of the reason that people have a perception that farmers are heartless or just don't care about the animals they raise is I think...

18:06
people's perception is of farmers from 150, 200 years ago. And mostly farmers were male then, and men of those generations weren't chatty, they weren't talkative, men weren't supposed to talk about how they felt about things. And so men were very quiet and very withdrawn, and so no one ever really knew what men were thinking 150, 200 years ago. Yeah, yeah.

18:34
We've come a long way from then, I think, because most of the men that I know, and I don't know very many now, but most of the men that I've known over the years, they're a lot more willing to answer questions and talk through things than they used to be. Yeah. I love being asked because I'm a verbal processor, as you can probably tell. That's how I work through a lot of stuff. Yeah. And men just didn't do that.

19:03
a long time ago. And I appreciate it because I really do want to know what my husband and my sons and my friends who are male think about the world and about their place in it because I'm really curious about people. And it doesn't matter to me whether you're male or female. I want to know what you think. So yeah, I think the question of, you know, you know how people feel and approach to animals to it, I think.

19:32
the mechanized farming that has come up into our sort of farming economy in the past few hundred years. I think it's another big part of it where you see confined animal feeding operations and stuff like that. I think people really do end up having to treat animals like machines. And even though those people are farmers because

20:01
know, a lot of the time they love the land and they care about their family. I think they are forced to treat animals like machines in a way where they, you know, maybe that's just what farming is to them. But I like alternative farming because it seems more holistic in that sense. You don't have to sacrifice your ideals and everything.

20:29
Yeah, and there's not that wall between you and the animal anymore. Okay. My goats, my goats whine and they'll, they'll, they'll cry and they'll tell me that they want to be moved and I can, I can push it for a little while, but my fence isn't perfect. And I have a few good jumpers and they'll, they'll just go out if they have to. It's like.

20:56
I can't force the animals too far into anything. I've found that I have to, I can't push them into anything. I have to lead them into something. It's a hundred times easier. And that's kind of, I think that kind of goes with that. Or the wall is gone between me and the animals. Yeah, yeah, exactly. And of course you're dealing with 36 or 37, not thousands of them. And so it's probably easier to be.

21:24
closer to your critters than say having a thousand or two thousand goats.

21:33
Yeah, those guys with like a lot of goats. I really would love to see that happen with the buckthorn grazing and everything, but I can only know it from my perspective. Right, exactly. So how many baby goats did you or do you have coming? Did you have baby goats this year? I'm going to have like a late summer kitten this year.

22:02
because of that me pushing back the breeding, but it's gonna be.

22:10
25 bread doughs. So if they're averaging two kids per dough, that I could probably expect about 50 kids. It's gonna be noisy at your place because baby goats are chatty. They're very skucky. Yeah, I have plenty of Nubian goats too and they're supposed to be the noisiest.

22:36
I know just enough about goats to make assumptions. I don't have any. I've never had goats. I just love them and I really love the baby goats. I've talked about this a lot on the podcast and I need to not get too far into it because people are going to get bored. But baby goats are adorable and I'm sure they're even more adorable when you know that they are going to improve and increase your bottom line. Yes, absolutely. Yeah.

23:06
I like them a lot. I think the charisma of goats is probably why I chose them specifically. Sheep might be more fitted to my, like the farm that I live on, and I get to graze the margins and the edges of fields and stuff. And it might be better for sheep because there's more grass than brush. But the goats are just, I love goats.

23:37
They are full of personality and sheep, I don't feel like are. No, no, they're a little bit. Well, I mean, you know, when people talk about sheep in a metaphor. Yeah, exactly. Sheep, to me, sheep are dumb and boring and goats are funny and full of mischief and always doing something you don't expect them to do. Yeah, that's right. So.

24:05
Okay, let me see what else. You clearly love what you're doing. Absolutely. Yeah. Good. And do you see this being a lifelong thing? Or is this a 10 years and then maybe maybe not anymore? Um, well, animal agriculture is my lifelong passion. I'm certain about that. The goat business

24:35
I'd like it to become a sustainable, like maybe a replicable thing where if at some point I need to split my herd into two, I could...

24:57
I could share the business of it with other people. And if someone eventually wanted to buy my business from me, I'd be okay with that. Not yet, of course, it's not at that level, but down the line, because I like working with people, but working at home, close to home right now.

25:25
Like I can see the goats out of the living room window and this is so perfect. Like I would love if things eventually looked a lot more like Katya's homestead, where I'm moving cattle out there and goats are sheep close to home and chickens and stuff. And yeah, no, I...

25:53
I joke about how as I get older, I'm going to move from inside the trees to the edge of the trees to the high ground on top of the hills and be moving cattle or something. You're going to be a cowboy. That's what you're going to do. Yeah. Everyone talks about horses. They're hay burners out here. But I have family in North Dakota who loves their horses.

26:23
I think there's, you know, I can see that someday, someday I think I'm going to have a horse and I'll love that horse. Yeah, I love horses. I don't want to own one, but I love watching them. I think that they are incredibly beautiful. I don't want one. They're too big for me. It scares me to death. They're huge. But it's okay. It's okay. There's so much power there. Yeah. And they're smart. They're thinking animals. That's like the goats.

26:53
It's a lot of power, not just, you know, muscle and everything, but they're thinkers. Yep. Absolutely. Okay. I have one more question for you because I keep meaning to ask somebody and you're probably the person to ask. When you eat goat and say it's a steak, like a beef steak, only it's a goat steak, how do you cook it?

27:20
Yeah. Um, yeah, I just got back my, my meat from the butcher, like a couple of weeks ago. And I cooked, uh, what they called, they labeled it a leg steak and I cooked it like I would a steak. I salted it the night before. And then I cooked it on high heat. I left it kind of rare in the middle and I rested it. And.

27:50
The, when it was fresh, like off the, you know, cut it up on the chopping block and everything, it was tough and I wasn't happy with it. The next day it sliced really, really good and it was tender and toothsome or whatever, but. Yeah, I have had dry aged goat that cut like cheese and that was so.

28:19
really really delicious. I think braids, like a braids in some kind of a broth or slow cooking is the more like tried and true you know break up the tougher meat because it is a tougher meat. I just had meatballs with ground goat and that was flawless. It's like lean beef. It's like except

28:49
Like between lamb and venison in flavor, but the fattiness was like lean beef. That was really great to cook with, really delicious too. But yeah, the cuts and the roasts and the steaks, I think it's slower cooking or, I'm experimenting with it. Okay, because we have not tried goat yet and I'm.

29:16
I'm hoping to maybe find somebody local who has goat that I could just buy some from because I don't want to buy an entire animal and then not like it and have it sit and then get thrown away. That's a terrible use of an animal. I don't want to do that. So I thought I would ask about the cooking process because I've never cooked it. I've cooked beef, I've cooked chicken, I've cooked lamb, I've cooked venison, but not goat. So. All right. Well, I'm going to go ahead and start.

29:46
Josh, thank you so much for taking the time to talk with me today. And I learned new things just like I do every time I interview people on this podcast. It's really fun.

29:57
Yeah, thank you, Mary. I've been listening to your podcast and I really like it. I'm going to keep listening because you have such different people on and I like hearing your story and mixed in with it. So it's a good joy. My story isn't nearly as interesting as you guys' story. So I'm just going to leave it there. We're just doing our thing and trying to get through our life and be happy in it. That's what we're doing here. You'll have to have a guest interviewer on.

30:27
have yourself be the guest sometime because I'd love to hear that. I did, it's actually released. It's the one called A Tiny Homestead. Oh cool, okay awesome. I'll find that one, thank you. Yeah and don't fall asleep listening to it, it's really not that interesting. All right Josh, thanks so much, have a great day. Thank you, you too Mary. Goodbye.